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Author Topic: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar  (Read 2121 times)

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Offline Ohio

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I am seeking any available information on the cracker jar pictured below. After a month of searching, no U.S. based EAPG or Milk Glass society has been able to ID this pattern & believe me I've tried. The best info I have received is from a glass reference author who believes the dimples, the form, and the scrolls, that this is the ware that Heisey's Winged Scroll was copied from. His estimate is that it's  a product of Vallerystahl, very early 1890's. This may account for the lack of recognition of the pattern in the U.S. organizations. This is probably a very difficult pattern to positively attribute as I am not aware if a 1880's Vallerystahl catalog even exists. Any assistance or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Ken

http://www.glasstreasurechest.com/catalog/images/bluecrackerjar.jpg


Offline Ivo

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 07:24:24 PM »
Does not look like any Valérysthal I have ever seen. First of all it is mould blown not pressed; the item would be a tobacco jar; the decoration points at Germany rather than France. I would help if you posted a good photograph of the underside and one of the rim. 
Ivo
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Offline Ohio

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2007, 10:45:18 PM »
Here is a photo of the bottom & rim. Question...how can you tell that this is mould blown & not pressed without a hands on inspection?

http://www.glasstreasurechest.com/catalog/images/closeup3.jpg


Offline Sid

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2007, 01:27:08 AM »
Ken:

The shape.  Opening is smaller than the body so it can't be pressed.


Offline Piper

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2007, 04:10:26 AM »
Ken:

The shape.  Opening is smaller than the body so it can't be pressed.


 Couldn't it have been pressed into a two part mold and then stuck together and the mold lines grinded off?

Btw...I think it's a really nice piece of glass.



 
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Offline Ohio

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2007, 05:05:00 AM »
"The shape.  Opening is smaller than the body so it can't be pressed."

With all due respect I can name more than a few companies who pressed glass in moulds with the opening smaller that the body, vases. decanters, covered dinnerware items such as sugars, pitchers just to name a few. Cambridge, Duncan Miller, New Martinsville, Paden City, Fostoria, Tiffin for example pressed glass with the openings far smaller than the bodies. Now perhaps your definition of pressed is different than my definition of pressed, however as an example the Cambridge Glass Company archieves lists both blown & pressed lines from it's beginnings to its closure & many of the pressed lines had items that incorporated openings smaller than the body diameter of the item. Now these definitions of what consitutes pressed may well vary between countries of origin, e.g. what is considered pressed in the US may not be considered pressed in England, France, Germany, etc.

I have received 1902 & 1908 Valérysthal catalog pages, however if the jar is Valérysthal it might be older than even the 1902 catalog. It is interesting that although this particular scroll is not evident in these catalogs the 1902 catalog has some interesting patterns that are more along those lines than the 1908 catalog. I've been provided a name of a gentleman in Germany that I'm told will know one way or another on Valérysthal.  Thanks, Ken

Offline Glasshound

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2007, 06:06:46 AM »
the leafy gold decoration looks like it's raised glass..if so, it's definitely pressed..

/Blair
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Offline Ohio

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2007, 07:01:42 AM »
Blair: The scroll design is raised. Thanks, Ken

Offline heartofglass

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 07:25:57 AM »
the leafy gold decoration looks like it's raised glass..if so, it's definitely pressed..

/Blair
Raised designs on glass are not the sole domain of pressed glass. Mould blown pieces can have quite detailed raised designs & complex shapes, for example, hand vases. (See my thread on these for pics).
Valerysthal did make mould blown items, including the aforementioned hand vases & a variety of other items with raised designs.
The difference between pressed & mould blown can be easily determined by examining the inside of the item.
If it is smooth inside (no indentations that follow the raised pattern on the outside) then it's pressed. If the pattern's indetations are visible, then it's mould blown.
Generally, mould blown items are typically (not always) lighter & thinner than pressed ones.
To me this item does look more likely German or Bohemian, late 19th c. due to the style of painted decoration.
Marinka.
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Offline Sid

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Re: Early Vallerystahl Information for Blue Milk Glass Cracker Jar
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2007, 04:26:54 PM »
Ken:

Pressed glass is formed in a mould by mechanically forcing the glass to a shape using a plunger.  The plunger needs to be able to exit the formed glass object so the point where the plunger enters is the largest.  There are pressed objects where the opening appears to be smaller than the cavity formed by the plunger but, if you look at them carefully there is always either an element of handwork to make that so or there was a blow mould step involved. 

Good examples are cruets and molasses cans (more commonly called syrups) where it appears that the opening is much smaller than the cavity.  These were produced using the cut-shut method where they were pressed with the plunger entering from the bottom to form the body and lip and some excess glass around the base.  When the plunger was removed, that excess glass was hand worked to close up the base leaving a distinct mark.

With regards to the combination of pressing and blow moulding, there was a US patent granted in 1873 for an operation where the handle and lip of a pitcher were formed by a pressing operation and then the body expanded using air pressure i.e. blow moulding. Here is a link to the patent

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT139993&id=tuJOAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2-IA1&dq=patent:139993

An example of a piece where there was a combination of pressing followed by a blowing step is this creamer made by Central Glass Co. circa 1885. It is all one piece of glass, with the body being much larger than the top.  You can feel the raised bumps on the inside that make the coinspot design. 

http://www3.sympatico.ca/sid.lethbridge/2006_030.jpg

Your jar does not have the appearance of being hand worked to form the final shape.  That leaves blowing into a mould as the most likely method of manufacture because objects such as your jar were most easily and economically made by blow moulding.

My initial answer was much shorter but was based on the above logic.

 

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