Author Topic: Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly) - Fenton  (Read 5802 times)

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Offline BJB

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Hi,

I managed to purchase two lovely pieces of green  carnival glass yesterday (and one not so nice!), and have managed to identfy one as "Dragon and Lotus", even though the flower looks like a rose to me. The other one is a deer and holly berries on three little feet, and I think its called "Stag and Holly" for the obvious reason.

After looking on the wonderful Carnval Glass Site (thanks Glen) I also now know that they were made by Fenton, but my question is when were they made?

http://tinypic.com/4vi6tj

http://tinypic.com/4vi6xc

Many thanks
Barbara


Connie

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2005, 08:54:00 PM »
Dragon & Lotus circa 1920

Stag & Holly circa 1912

These dates according to Fenton Art Glass 1907-1939 by the Whitmyers

Stag and Holly has been reproduced.  I can't see the detail on yours well enough to determine if it is orginal.

Here are some links to help you determine if it is real or fake.

http://www.ddoty.com/stagholly.html

http://www.ddoty.com/newstagholly.html


Offline Glen

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2005, 08:58:19 PM »
Yes you have correctly named those two pretty items from Fenton. They are both Classic Carnival Glass from the original era of production. A rough time line would be c 1910-1920.

Hope this helps a bit.

Glen
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Offline Glen

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2005, 09:01:47 PM »
It's "real" aka "original".

My research........

http://www.carnivalglass.org/newbies/09.asp

You don't need to see the detail on Barbara's bowl......the answer's in the feet!
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
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Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline BJB

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2005, 09:54:20 PM »
Hi Glen,

Many many thanks for your help. I am so pleased that they are OK.

I must confess that the only things I know about carnival glass is what I have read on the web site, but it is begining to grow on me, all except the marigold colour which I can't get on with.

Thanks once again,
Barbara


Offline Glen

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2005, 03:03:52 PM »
Dating Classic Carnival Glass is actually fascinating. I can give you some specific instances of advertising for the Dragon & Lotus and the Stag & Holly, so that you can see when they were being marketed.

The Stag & Holly pattern was advertised in the Butler Brothers catalogs in 1913. It was shown in Sears Roebuck ads over a decade later...in 1927.

The Dragon & Lotus was first shown in Butler Brothers in 1913. It also had a long run and was shown as late as 1927 in Butler Brothers catalogs. (Information on both patterns from "Carnival Glass- The Magic & the Mystery").

Both those patterns are also known in rare red Carnival - and that colour wasn't used by Fenton till the early 1920s, so you can see the time line. That's why I gave you the generalised period of 1910-1920 for production. That was the heyday of Classic Carnival, even though some was produced later in the US.

You say you're not too keen on marigold, Barbara? That's 'cos you've not seen great pieces displayed right  :D

My favorite would be a magnificent pastel Peacocks plate from Northwood
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/pastelPEACOCK.JPG
Take a look and tell me you love it  :lol:
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline BJB

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2005, 04:59:25 PM »
Hi Glen,

I must admit the marigold I have seen seems to be of inferior quality (mostly "sprayed" on like if you know what I mean) and not much sheen, rather flat and, dare I say it, boring :oops: .


I have not had much to do with carnival glass, apart from a piece of Northwood, which had the big "N" in the middle to help me, as so much has been copied and has then been "got at". I am always worried that I might be passing on a wrong un. However the more I read the more I like!

Your plate is fantastic but to be honest it doesn't look marigold, it has so many colours on it.

I think you might have a convert, but I really like the blue and amythyst best. :wink:

Many thanks,

Barbara


Offline Glen

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2005, 09:48:57 PM »
Barbara, I actually prefer blue Carnival too  :lol:  Though marigold - when it is either pumpkin (and full of deep reds and purples in the iridescence) or pastel (and shot through with turquoise, green, aqua and pink) is splendid. But you are right, there are many easily found items that are not top quality pieces and have light and patchy iridescence. Hunting for the good pieces (and knowing when you find one) is part of the magic and mystery!

Actually the iridescence on pretty much all Carnival was sprayed on - just as it is at Fenton today. The glass was very hot when the metallic salts (iridescence) was applied and the items were then cooled slowly in the lehr.

Don't be too worried about fake carnival. There isn't actually that much around. In the UK there are some "fake" Peacocks and Good Luck bowls, but they can easily be spotted (on the genuine items the N should be in a circle and underlined...there are other indicators too). Stag and Holly "fakes" are seen only rarely in the UK - they are seen more often in the USA.

I've summed up a lot in a few words, and truly this is a massive subject that can't be summarised, so please accept these few words as such  :)

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Anonymous

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2005, 10:57:08 AM »
Glen -

That is interesting that the Staf and Holly "fake" is not common in the UK.  I would say it is prevalent here in the US.  There was 1 auction house that I use to go to that had pieces in every color imaginable at least 1/month.

You will also see in at most of the antique malls around here labeled as original.

I didn't think the one posted here was a repro but I was trying to make people aware that "fakes" of that pattern abound in the US.


Offline Glen

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Carnival Glass Question(Dragon and Lotus and Stag and Holly)
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2005, 11:06:39 AM »
Yes, that's absolutely as I have observed it. I think it's down to the mode of importation into the country. In the USA AA Importing have been bringing the Stag & Holly fakes, and also Butterfly & Berry fakes, in from Korea for years (I have details of the first reported "sighting" back in 1982).

In the UK we have been on the receiving end of Far Eastern Peacocks, Good Lucks and the odd Grape & Cable fake for years too! Again they started in the 1980s and could be seen stacked many deep in a few London antique markets at the time.

Of course, examples of all of them have crossed The Pond as they have been sold and exported, again (often on eBay). But there's no doubt in my mind that the S&H fakes are most certainly not as thick on the ground in the UK as they are in the USA (in fact they are "hard to find"!!  :roll:  :lol:

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

 



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