Author Topic: Textured Vases with large eye pattern - Oberglas, Austria  (Read 8146 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Anne E.B.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 1586
    • U.K.
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2005, 10:49:09 AM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
Thats interesting, I've seen these many times, always attributed to riihimaki(sometimes Nanny Still), and I thought that's what they were, due to the sheer number of times they have been thus attributed on ebay, etc, even though they don't seem quite right for riihimaki.  .


You are right, I too have recently seen one attributed to Riihimaki, but like you, feel uneasy about this.  
Regards - Anne  :wink:
Anne E.B


Offline aa

  • Glass Professional
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 1807
    • http://www.adamaaronson.com
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2005, 07:23:39 PM »
The Riihimaki vases by Helen Tynell were mouth-blown into still moulds, cracked off, and then the rims were ground and polished. I think, by contrast, these pieces have been made by a technique described by Adam D, (the other Adam) in another ID thread referring to the INCA vase as "Pressed and blown", also a very skilled technique but completely different.    I don't know whether Riihimaki produced pressed glass, but I think you can eliminate any factory that did not use press moulding from your searches. Adam A
Hello & Welcome to the Board! Sometimes my replies are short & succinct, other times lengthy. Apologies in advance if they are not to your satisfaction; my main concern is to be accurate for posterity & to share my limited knowledge
For information on exhibitions & events and to see images of my new work join my Facebook group
https://www.facebook.com/adamaaronsonglass
Introduction to Glassblowing course:a great way to spend an afternoon http://www.zestgallery.com/glass.


Offline paradisetrader

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 940
  • Gender: Male
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 12:57:10 AM »
Thank you Adam A for that clarification and the reference. Yes the fascinating Inca vase does have a similar "formed" rim.

I have read Adam of York's comments in this thread
 several times now and finally I think I am getting my head around it.

Adam's comment there
Quote
One possibility is "pressed and blown" - a process commonly associated with mass production, but I suppose someone might have adapted it. A very heavy pressing is made (enabling the top to be formed), and then, handling by the top ring, is quickly transferred to a blow mould of the finished shape and surface pattern and then blown to finish.
still leaves me with questions.

1) You'd need a very strange looking kind of caliper thingy to grab hold of the formed rim which should be sufficiently cool to do so ...awkward
2) You'd then need to re-heat the rest of the body (but not the rim) in preparation for blowing into the mold ...right ?
3)  So far so good (I think) BUT how do you blow / force air into such a large aperture when blowing into the mold ??? That I can't figure out. Compressed air ?

I've left aside how you'd mold only the rim and not the body in the first instance - coz my brain can't cope.

So yes a tricky process but one which must have been mastered in many glass factories if this is the same process as jam jar production as Adam York suggests. Without specialist equipment much more difficult for the studio glassmaker ...if at all possible ?
Pete


Offline Glen

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 2889
  • Gender: Female
    • Carnival Glass Research and Writing
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 07:28:35 AM »
I can't be totally certain from the photos, but I don't think the neck/rim of these vases is exactly the same as the Inca vase (and also the Seagulls, Pebble & Fan and the Giant Lily). However, these mystery "eye" vases do remind me of a similar mystery vase I posted on the Glass Board a few years ago. No one was able to help me at the time, but I'm pleased to say I actually managed to solve the mystery myself.

My mystery vase has a heavy texture and a very distinctive ground rim. Over the years I have acquired several slightly different versions, some in plain glass, some colored and a couple with light (possibly cold applied) iridiescence. I had variously thought they could be Whitefriars or perhaps Davidson's Luna. In fact they are neither. The answer came when a friend found an example of them with a label still attached. The label read: OBERGLAS - Austria.

I have tried to contact Oberglas (I did find their website, but I can't seem to locate it now...someone will come across it I am sure). I have seen identical vases in Finland as well. (Oh and btw, yes, Rihimaki most certainly did make pressed glass - in the form of a fabulous range of Carnival during the 1930s).

Edited footnote - possibly this was the website I found. My enquiries to them never received a reply.

http://www.glassonline.com/wgid_stoelzleoberglas/
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline paradisetrader

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 940
  • Gender: Male
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2005, 08:12:47 AM »
Glen
I don't think anyone was suggesting that the rims of the subject piece and that of the Inca vase are exactly the same.
I said
Quote
Yes the fascinating Inca vase does have a similar "formed" rim.
To clarify, I guess the only similarity is the fact that it is formed rather than cracked/ground/polished/ fire polished.

The comparison here is only in technique NOT maker. It would seem that this technique is very widely used. I was trying to visualize it.

Oberglas
STĂ–LZLE OBERGLAS AG & CO, Köflach, Austria  ?
Thir website is http://www.stoelzle.com/en/unternehmen/index.html
Do you have a pic of your vases ?
Pete


Offline Glen

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 2889
  • Gender: Female
    • Carnival Glass Research and Writing
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2005, 08:25:54 AM »
The neck of the Inca (and others) is very significant and one of the most important characteristics of that range of vases. I have never seen another range of vases like it (the mould seams are part of the "big picture" too) so I was very conscious of making the point that the Inca neck is important re. those specific items.

I spotted the other website after I posted the first one - it wasn't around when I did my initial checking out last year, or at least I don't recall it. I can't see anything there that will help. That's why I tried to contact them, we really need someone with archive info (forlorn hope....). I guess that my vases are circa 1950s or 1960s.

I do have a photo somewhere, of a couple of the vases. I would have posted it earlier if I had been able to find it.   ::)
======================================================

Peter, I just read through your message again and you are confusing me.

You said
Quote
To clarify, I guess the only similarity is the fact that it is formed rather than cracked/ground/polished/ fire polished.


The neck of the Inca etc., is moulded - or rather, blown into a mould, but still moulded as oppposed to freely blown and shaped. (Apologies if my terminology is "wanting".) But being moulded (formed) and having an attribute such as "fire polishing" is surely not mutually exclusive? An item can be moulded (shaped, formed) and also be fire polished. You can also have moulded items that have ground bases or ground rims.

You also said
Quote
The comparison here is only in technique NOT maker. It would seem that this technique is very widely used.

By this technique, do you mean "blown into the mould"? I can add that a number of Carnival Glass shapes (for example, bulbous decanters, bulbous water pitchers, bulbous vases) were all made that way. The technique is used when the shape precludes the use of a plunger. Specifically, in bulbous vases such as the Inca, the mouth is narrower than the wide bulbous center of the vase. Thus a plunger could not be used, as it wouldn't be able to force the glass to the extreme width needed to attain the central bulbous section, and also be able to be withdrawn from the top of the narrower neck.

Edited to add this url that shows a bulbous water pitcher (see above)
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Enameled.html

I'm beginning to wish that I hadn't waded in on this one.  :cry:

All I actually wanted to say was that I have some vases with a similar ground top and neck to the mystery one....and they were made by Oberglas of Austria.
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline Adam

  • Glass Professional
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
  • Sowerby 1949-56, Davidson 1956-61, Jobling 1961-72
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2005, 10:32:51 AM »
The pressed-and-blown system is easy to understand but really needs sketches, which my previous posting lacked.  Give me a day or two, please.

Adam D.


Offline Anne E.B.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 1586
    • U.K.
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2005, 11:36:50 AM »
Wow!  Thank you Glen, Peter, Adam A and Adam D for your absolutely fascinating comments :lol:   I won't even pretend to understand the complexities of glass making techniques - its just mind blowing  (not an intentional pun!):? , but I am, like Max, enjoying reading your comments although they are way above my head.  My two vases are still wrapped in bubblewrap. I think its time to enjoy them now.  I look forward to reading any further comments. :P
Regards - Anne.
Anne E.B


Offline paradisetrader

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 940
  • Gender: Male
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2005, 12:55:30 PM »
Glen the technique I was referring to was the "pressed and blown" which Adam A. refered to in his last post
It seems to be a two stage process. I was querying the second stage where the blowing would need to be done via the large aperture of the mouth which had been already formed (Adam of York said "hard molded") in stage one.

I'm not sure if you are querying that these vases and the Inca vase were done by the same process or not. My understanding is that if mold blown there would probably not be mold lines. They are more likely in a press molding process which is what I think Adam of York means by "hard molding.
Anne , Are there any mold lines on your vases ?

Oberglass
The Oberglas site you show Glen is just a directory site. If thats who you wrote to then I'm not surprised at the lack of response.
I have given the site for the company I think it is ....I don't know if that's what you mean by the "second site".

Marcus confirmed to me verbally that these vases are not Czech.
Pete


Offline Glen

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 2889
  • Gender: Female
    • Carnival Glass Research and Writing
Textured Vases with large eye pattern - help with identity
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2005, 02:03:54 PM »
Peter, I also was writing about the pressed & blown process. I have read (and indeed I did re-read) what Adam wrote and as far as I am aware, with my own limited comprehension, I was referring to the same process. 

My understanding is that the Inca vase (and its brothers and sisters, and items such as the water pitcher I linked to) were made using a pressed & blown process. All the items I have mentioned above had mould lines. The moulds would have been jointed and would have needed to be opened up to allow the item to be removed. The Inca (and family) have a very distinctive series of mould lines, both horizontally and vertically. The neck of the vase has two vertical mould lines running top to bottom, and a third, horizontally, just below the rim of the neck. The very distinctive cross section of the Inca (the Pebble & Fan, the Giant Lily and the Seagulls vase) is most unusual and I have not seen another vase exactly like them (so far.....and in my experience only).

The other point that I was trying to explain (obviously badly) was that (according to my limited and no doubt "challenged" understanding) the two characteristics:

1 being formed (ie moulded)
2 being fire polished or ground

are not mutually exclusive. In other words, an item can be moulded and also be ground or polished or fire polished.

The reason I said that was because of your comment

Quote
To clarify, I guess the only similarity is the fact that it is formed rather than cracked/ground/polished/ fire polished.

My apologies if that is not what you meant - but that is what I thought you were saying.

Perhaps our discussion is all down to semantics and my not quite understanding what exactly you are saying. Possibly it's all down to the fact that I am probably two sandwiches short of a full picnic.

Re. the Oberglas website, I was simply saying that the url link you mentioned (for which - thank you) was not one I had seen when I did my original searching last year - quite possibly it is new. I was trying to explain that I couldn't see anything on the website you kindly gave (nor on the one I had mentioned) that would help us to answer the current ID question. I noted that I had emailed the directors etc last year (several times) and no reply had been forthcoming.

Glen (aka Geln)

============================================

Apologies if this seems a bit like a soliloquy, but I just wanted to explain what I mean by blow moulding, with particular reference to the bulbous vases and pitchers that I mentioned. If the shape of the article is such that a plunger cannot be used (eg in the case of a vase, it is smaller at its top/mouth than lower down, thus a plunger could not be removed) then the method used to shape the glass to the inside of the mould is to force it against the sides using air pressure, i.e. to blow it in - thus the term “blow moulding”.  The pressure of the blown air would then push the glass against the inside of the mould and leave the centre of the vase hollow.

I quote below from Fenton Art Glass website regarding press and blow moulding:

Quote
Highly skilled workers called gatherers wind hot molten glass on a hollow blowpipe or the tip of a long steel rod called a punty. After judging the proper amount, the gatherer must shape the gob of glass properly and drop it precisely in the center of the mould.
 
The presser's function is to ensure that the glass takes the proper form of the mould. Too much pressure, and the glass will shatter; too little pressure and the mould will not fill properly.
 
For some pieces, the molten glass is blown into a mould to form the basic shape and pattern. Finishers use what is known as pucellas or "tool" and a cherry wood paddle to finalize the form, flaring, crimping and/or straightening the glass. This requires a well-honed sense of timing because all these actions must be completed before the glass cools into its solid form.
And if you look at this website (also Fenton) http://www.fentonartglass.com/fenton_skf.htm
and scroll down to the photo of a blue Favrene vase (with a bulbous middle) you will read this - the photo of the vase will also help to underline what I’m trying to say.

Quote
Each piece is handcrafted, carefully hand-blown into a mould that imparts the “Loganberry” design
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

 



This Website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand