Author Topic: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please  (Read 1120 times)

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Offline Angela B

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Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« on: July 17, 2007, 06:08:01 AM »
Can somebody help Marinka Bozzec and I identify the black hand vase shown in this picture
http://www.glassencyclopedia.com/2handvases.html
The clear frosted vase is design registration number 280197 registered in 1873 by John Derbyshire of Salford, Manchester, England. However, it is not the same vase as the black one which has a ribbed cuff and a different pattern around the base. A similar one to the black one is shown in Cyril Manley's book on page 102, and he says it has a "large and spidery" J. Derbyshire & Co. trademark. But this black one, which belongs to Marinka Bozzec, does not appear to have any marks.
It would be really good if somebody can tell us the registration number or confirm that they have seen one with the Derbyshire trademark
From: Angela Bowey
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Offline Bernard C

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Re: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 07:32:41 AM »
Angela — This question has been on the boil for at least twenty years, with no-one any closer to a solution.   I don't trust Manley's book — he was of that generation of so-called experts to whom "Don't know" was not a valid option, which makes it very difficult to distinguish between fact and informed guesswork (fiction), as they don't usually tell you how they arrived at their conclusions.   Fortunately there are only a few of these experts left, mostly in the second rank of auction houses, and they are rapidly going extinct.

Derbyshire could have had two moulds, but a different glass house is more likely, as I don't know of any other Derbyshire pattern with two nearly identical moulds, which indicates to me that they looked after their moulds with considerable care.   I don't think it has been established whether Derbyshire's registration was enforceable, as hand vases were made in other materials, and we don't know which came first.

Bernard C.  8)
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Offline Angela B

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Re: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 11:02:13 AM »
Thanks Bernard, I hadn't realised it was such a long-standing issue.
There is a very similar-looking vase by Percival Yates and Vickers shown on page 47 of Jenny Thompson's book (Rd no. 284031). It doesn't have a hand, it has a fish. But the top looks similar to Marinka's black vase. Not that that proves anything, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
From: Angela Bowey
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Offline heartofglass

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Re: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2007, 03:45:08 AM »
Hi Angela,
many thanks for posting about this vase. It is a real mystery!
I checked it again for marks & there are none whatsoever.
The style is obviously English & Northern, but after looking through my copy of the Hajdamach book's chapter on pressed glass, it could have been from any one of the many major & lesser-known factories.
The body of the vase has a distinctive pattern all over it, like leaves. The black glass is incredibly dense, it's blacker than any black glass I have ever seen. Black is also a very rare colour for hand vases.
This is a rare hand vase, the only one of this exact mould shape I have encountered. The only other one I have seen is pictured in the Manley book, & that one is clear frosted flint glass.
Any information regarding this vase would be greatly appreciated, as I need an attribution for both my article for the Glass Museum online & my forthcoming book on hand vases.
Marinka.
More glass than class!


Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2007, 06:44:42 AM »
Perhaps the black is a clue. If it is so dense and dark it might be hyalith. If it is hyalith, who made it apart from   Freiderich Eigerman and Colonel Bucquoy, both Czechoslovakia? Or who else made anything similar?


Offline Bernard C

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Re: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2007, 07:14:55 AM »
Thompson p41 shows both Derbyshire pieces that have close lookalikes, the hand vase and the "spell" (spill) vase of April 28, 1876.   The nearly spell vase is often seen in hard opaque white.   This one's been ticking along for 20 years or more with no solution as well!

Solve one of these and there is a good chance that you've solved the other.

Christine — All the polished and matt black versions of these two styles of vase I have seen have been in amethyst glass, but you often need a very intense light to see it.

Bernard C.  8)
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Offline Angela B

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Re: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2007, 09:20:41 AM »
Here are some of the differences between the two hand vases. You can see these differences, of course, but I just wanted to summarise them:
1: the Derbyshire (clear frosted) vase has 24 points around the rim. The black (unidentified) one only has 12.
2: the Derbyshire vase is quite fat all the way down, whereas the other is shaped into quite a narrow wrist.
3: the Derbyshire vase has leaves and bulrushes whereas the other has just different kinds of leaves.
4: the Derbyshire vase has a simple looped pattern cuff, the other has a ribbed collar around the wrist with a fancy pattern of lines and dots around the cuff.
5: the Derbyshire frosted vase has shiny fingernails, and I can't tell whether the frosted version of the alternate vase (shown in Manley's book on page 102) does, but I think not.

Does anyone have access to old catalogues of the Manchester and Salford glassworks from the 1870s or 80s?
From: Angela Bowey
My New Zealand Glass book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BT0ND3Q
London Lampworkers book on Amazon.co.uk - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BHRQS9W
Bagley Glass book - http://www.glass-time.com/orderbagleyglassbook.html
http://www.glassencyclopedia.com/ - the Glass Encyclopedia
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Offline mhgcgolfclub

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Re: Help identify J Derbyshire type vase please
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2015, 02:34:23 PM »
I can solve this very long running mystery and confirm that Cyril Manley was correct and that both hand vases were John Derbyshire and I should be able to add some pictures later.

Roy


 



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