Author Topic: NEGC or Sandwich?  (Read 1561 times)

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Offline cfosterk

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NEGC or Sandwich?
« on: January 22, 2008, 12:03:05 AM »
I guess the attached looks a little like St Louis so the Lutz influence at Sandwich looks favourite. Anyone got a more substantial US collection, or at least a longer neck to stick out and plump for a attribution??



Offline alexander

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 12:46:24 AM »
Hi, it's hard to tell from the photo, the petals appear to have lines of little airbubbles on them,
so I'd say Sandwich as this is a common feature on Sandwich lampwork.

Lutz worked for both NEGC and Sandwich.
Alexander
Norwegian glass collector


Offline cfosterk

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 01:33:22 AM »
All the literature I've read suggests that Nicholas Lutz started at Sandwich in 1869 until the company closed in 1888. He was born and trained at St Louis (indeed it is thought that he brought some canes over from France!). As Sandwich and NEGC were competitors he would not have worked at NEGC during this period.

When Sandwich closed Lutz went on to work at Mt Washington and then the Union Glass factory at Somerville. He died in 1904.

I haven't found any mention of Lutz at NEGC - if such information does exist could you point me in the right direction?

The base is not highly concave - a usual feature of NEGC weights...


Offline tropdevin

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 01:39:44 PM »
Hi. I'm no expert on these New England weights, but the layout, the petal length and the leaf shape are consistent with NEGC rather than Sandwich.

There is a fairly detailed article about Nicolas and Francois Lutz in the 1997 PCA Bulletin; that leaves open whether Nicolas worked for NEGC for a short time as well as for Sandwich.

Alan
Alan
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."  Abraham Lincoln.

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.
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Offline cfosterk

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 05:59:48 PM »
The Kulles book is great on lampwork...

Leaves look to be NEGC - broad with tell tale bubbles, and the leaves seem to be more similar and of equal length again pointing to NEGC.

Central millefiori cane is similar to a NEGC floret.

Only nagging doubt is the similarity to a number of St Louis pieces!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!


Offline alexander

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 09:00:10 PM »
In the book "The Art of the Paperweight Saint Louis" by former manager Gerard Ingold of Saint Louis,
he states that Nicholas Lutz worked at both NEGC and Sandwich, at NEGC before S.

Lutz was at St. Louis from 1845 to 1860.

I should have looked in Kulles before I replied, I always get the bubbles on leaves attribution mixed up.
Therefore I change my vote to NEGC  :)
Alexander
Norwegian glass collector


Offline cfosterk

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 09:12:55 PM »
Wow!

This forum is fantastic at filling in blanks in other members knowledge like that! Thanks Alex!!

I think it's brilliant that people will so willingly give their advice/opinions so freely (and expertly!!)


Offline KevinH

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 10:17:04 PM »
Personally, I think it would be wise to also refer to John D. Hawley's 1997 book on the B&S and NEGC companies. And also George Kulle's 2002 book, "Identifying Antique Paperweights - The Less Familiar".

And why, so far, has nobody asked about the size of the queried weight? In general, I think it still holds true that NEGC and B&S weights have distinctly differing profiles. If the queried weight has not been reshaped through repairs / polishing, then its profile might easily suggest an attribution.

I am not convinced that there is any connection between the design of this weight and Nicholas Lutz (or his brother, for that matter). Anybody care to give a link (or book reference) to a known St Louis Poinsettia that looks like the one under discussion?

From what I have read, I am also uncertain about the truth about whether any of the Lutz family worked at both NEGC and B&S, but both Hawley and Kulles mention that the Lutz brothers were at White Mills (Dorflinger) after emigrating from France. And Kulles gives 1870, not 1869 as the date Nicholus Lutz went to B&S. [As the weight we are considereing does not really look like the few Dorflinger ones I have seen in the books, I doubt it can be thought to have come from that company.] I agree that Ingold states (page 27 of the book) that Nicholas Lutz worked at NEGC as well as B&S, but he gives no reference to back up the single statement. Also, he seems not to mention Lutz working for Dorflinger - in fact, he simply says that both Dorflinger and Lutz worked at all the glassworks he lists!?

To be honest, I think the weight is probably NEGC but I would like to see better photos, including full profile and details of the petals and leaves. Attributions on a single-view photo that shows no real detail and a variety of interpretations (including my own) of text from selected books, is really not enough for a safe conclusion.
KevinH


Offline alexander

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2008, 02:57:03 AM »
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same book ?
My reference was to page 49/50 of Ingold's Saint Louis book
published by Paperweight Press in 1981 Edited by LH Selman.

Ingold states that N.L. left St Louis in 1860 and emigrated to White Mills where he joined Dorflinger
To me the text suggest he first worked with Dorflinger and then continued on to the other companies.
He goes on to say they worked at NEGC, Union Glass, South Boston Glass, Mt. Wash and Sandwich etc.
He does not give references, but one can assume he had access to SL records and personell?
 
Glass Paperweights by James Mackay published 1973 also states that Lutz worked for Dorflinger,
then at NEGC before moving on to Sandwich in 1869.

There is a 9/10 year gap between NL's emgiration to the US in 1860 and commencing work at B&S in 69/70,
so it could be assumed he worked at some other glassworks in that time?

Wether NL had anything to do with this weight I don't know.
I know little of his style and from what I understand there are very few weights that
can be said to be definate NL weights.

A similar NEGC poinsetta can be seen in Kulles Lampwork book plate 105. 

There's a mildly similar SL flower in Jargstorf's book on page 123 but I wouldn't personally connect
SL to most US flower weights - there are influences since so many masters were trained in France,
but to me the US makers found their own styles. 

There's another more similar SL flower on latticino in Letts Guide To Collecting Paperweights by Sara Rossi, 1990, on page 36,
unfortunately this book has some errors that diminishes it's authority (the Whitefriars and Gillinder sections particularly).

I ordered the Boston & Sandwich and NEGC book some time ago and will report back when I get it.

I'd love to see some pics of B&S weights in profile if anyone can point me to some,
I have three NEGC weights and they have three different profiles.

Edited:
The bases of two scrambles similar to Clichy with a concave base with a basal ring,
both have profiles similar to Clichy and Baccarat. Both of these bases are rather messy.
The third is a concentric on latticino with a completly different base and very different profile.
I'm confident of the attributions of these as I've been able to match canes.
Alexander
Norwegian glass collector


Offline KevinH

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Re: NEGC or Sandwich?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 01:46:07 AM »
Thanks for the additional comments, Alexander.

The Ingold book that I have, The Art of the Paperweight - Saint Louis is the 1995 version, also published by Paperweight Press. Interesting that the later book does not have quite the same info on Nicholas Lutz and others, as was in the 1981 book.

I agree that the Poinsettia in Kulles (plate 105) is generally similar to the blue one being discussed - it has the same basic layout of stem and leaves. But, being pedantic, I think the pink one in Kulles is better shaped, with much more even working of the petals and with a shorter stem and broader leaves. I know these are points of detail, but sometimes that can lead to an interesting conclusion.

You will have to forgive me for disagreeing, but the flower weight in Sybille Jargstorf's book (left-hand column of page 123) is not at all similar to the Poinsettia shown here, or in the Kulles book. I think it's a form of "double Clematis" as it has striped petals with 5 to the front and 10 to the rear and also has two leaves behind the flower head as well as only two leaves on the stem. And the leaves have crimped edges with no sign of surface bubbles.

The same comments apply to the example in the Rossi book - which is actually stated to be a Clematis and has the same structural elements as the one that Jargstorf showed - except that the Rossi one is indeed on a latticino swirl.

Thanks for the pointer to James Mackay's book - I had not looked at that one for some time. Yes, page 89 has a reference to Nicholas Lutz going from NEGC (referred to by its other name of "Cambridge") to Sandwich. The reference is useful in the discussion of whether or not Lutz was at NEGC as the book obviously uses information from no later than 1973. But as with so many other references and books there is no cross-ref to the source of the "fact". However, I suspect much of Mackay's detail was based on the 1969 work The Encyclopedia of Glass Paperweights by Paul Hollister, Jr.

In Hollister's book, which does include source notes, pages 212 and 213, within the chapter on Sandwich, cover the movements of Nicholas Lutz. There is a source reference (correspondence relating to verbal information from the son of Christian Dorflinger's cousin!!) for part of the information about Lutz making weights in the St Louis style at White Mills when working for Dorflinger.

As with Hollister's book, Mackay lists types of weights made by the various companies. In neither work, is there a reference (that I can find) to Poinsettia weights by St Louis. So this suggests that Poinsettias made at Sandwich by, or with influence from, Nicholas Lutz, had the design based on weights from somewhere other than St Louis.
KevinH

 

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