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Author Topic: Identifying an old Carnival piece  (Read 4700 times)

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Anonymous

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« on: July 15, 2005, 10:55:07 PM »
First let me introduce myself. I am Mark T from West Virginia. My wife and I have recently opened an ebay consignment shop in town, and I am getting overrun by glassware and questions about it of one kind or another. I love it when people bring me old items from Fenton or elsewhere, but I am essentially an amature at ID'ing old, old glassware. I want to tell my clients the right thing, but I will not knowingly rip them off or misrepresent an item to the public for sale on ebay or anywhere else. By the way, I live about ten minutes from the Fenton factory. Anyway...

A nice lady brought a Carnival compote to me yesterday and said it belonged to her great grandmother. Well, it looked like Fenton to me, but it looked so old that I took it up to their meusem. The historian had a blast with it and actually was a tad bit stumped, if only for a few minutes. And then he found the same mold in a Fenton book (ware # 8227). But the story goes on. He is convinced that this piece pre-dates Fenton's offerings. He says that the piece is actually a US Glass creation because it's iridescence was slightly different than Fenton works. Upon further reseach it was discovered that Fenton actually bought that mold from USG many years later, well after this piece was made. It was also noted that the piece was "overfired" before the coating was applied, creating softer tips around the rim and causing the five sided pedestal to slightly twist under the weight of the top portion. It looks like it was all done on purpose.

This is a beautiful piece of old glassware and, from what I am told, could be quite valuable. The historian at Fenton Art Glass has asked that I share with him any more information I can find about this compote. So, where do I go now? I hate to just stick a nice piece on regular old ebay to go for a buck or two just because my client doesn't know what she has.

Any ideas where I can turn? If it keeps up like this, I might become quite a fixture in this forum (if you'll have me). Thanks to you all in advance.

PS Still working on figuring out the picture thing.

Offline Anne

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2005, 02:02:31 AM »
Mark, welcome. You'll find easy to follow picture instructions up near the top of the forum listing.

If you register with the board you'll be able to select to be notified of any replies to your messages. Hope this helps. :)
Cheers! Anne, da tekniqual wizzerd
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Anonymous

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2005, 02:39:56 PM »
Thanks for your reply Anne. I registered be fore I posted my first message, and all seemed well, but when I attempted to post with it I got an error message stating that my user name was taken. So I will dig into it a bit further when I have more time. In the meantime I have attempted to post a few pictures of this compote. If they don't turn out I'll try again. I am somewhat excited by this find and my meeting with Fenton's historian. I really want to know what I have here. Thanks again!


http://tinypic.com/8yajrd.jpg

http://tinypic.com/8yakc9.jpg

http://tinypic.com/8yakn6.jpg

http://tinypic.com/8yakr4.jpg

Offline lhazeldahl

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2005, 03:40:04 PM »
Hello,
   I am Linda and your glass story is very exciting.  The reason I am posting now is because I want you to look at this rose bowl we have been trying to identify.  These good folks have been on the lookout for me, and I hope the similarity here with your compote will be a lead for me.  Everytime my piece is close to one design or another, it won't quite match.  It is also an unusual color.  (Of course, you may tell me exactly what I have, and perhaps it isn't anything special)  Thanks so much for your time, this whole thing is exciting!!  I am so happy that I discovered this message board, and with all this knowledge these GENUINE EXPERTS are willing to impart, I have certainly become hooked on glass.  If you would please take a look when you have time, here is the link to my original post.   

Linda    (yeah, I am brown nosing again, folks...hee he) 

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1589.0.html
You can't hurt your eyes by looking on the bright side...

Connie

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2005, 03:45:13 PM »
Hi Mark T. Welcome to the board.  I am not sure who the Fenton historian was that you consulted but I am going to have to disagree  :oops:

The piece in your pictures appears to be Fenton Pinwheel Comport Ware no. 8227 YOP (Year of Production) 1970-75.  It is from the  Original Formula Carnival Glass (amethyst) line.


Your piece appears to be identical including the iridescence to the one shown in Fenton Glass Compendium 1970-1985.  I think your piece is later rather than earlier.  IMHO.

Offline Glen

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2005, 03:52:44 PM »
Hi Mark - your lovely item is Fenton's "Pinwheel Comport" #8227. I believe it was made in 1971 when Fenton introduced this pattern to its new Carnival range (Fenton's re-introduction of Carnival began in 1970).

Almost all contemporary Carnival from Fenton is marked with their logo (or a cursive F). However, there are some early amethyst items that were not marked at all - and these often cause confusion. Examples include Leaf Tiers nappies, Leaf Chain and Cherry Chain bowls, Fenton Flowers (Orange Tree) rosebowls and some Persian Medallion 9" plates.

They confuse the best of us at times. Allow me to tell you a story about one of the 9" Persian Medallion plates. The owner showed it to someone who probably knows more about Fenton than anyone else - Frank M. Fenton. He was unsure at first as he explained that the iridescence looked very much like it could have been an old one and was not at all like some of the newer ones. However, Frank compared the mystery plate to one in the Fenton Museum that was marked with the Fenton logo, and they were identical in every other way. Also, the Classic old examples have plain backs, whereas the new ones have Bearded Berry exteriors.

Frank agreed that undoubtedly some new Carnival (in the early 1970s) had indeed left the factory without the logo.

I am not aware of the compote having been made by U S Glass in Carnival.

This is just my opinion - feel free to disagree.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Offline Glen

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2005, 03:53:59 PM »
Hi Connie - I was so busy writing my response that I didn't see yours.

We are of a like mind.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Connie

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2005, 11:08:37 PM »
Yes, Glen we agree  :lol:

With regard to mark vs unmarked.  It is my understanding that Fenton began marking pieces in 1970 with "Fenton" in the oval logo starting with new molds.  However, it took them a number of years (3-5) to rework all their molds.  So you can find pieces made as late as 1975 which is unmarked if they used a previously made mold.

Offline Glen

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2005, 08:54:54 AM »
Connie - yes again  :lol: and thank you.

I have items from the very first 1970 Carnival issue and they are marked with the Fenton oval. And then there are some subsequent items (very, very few) that are not marked. The problem undoubtedly comes when someone has an unmarked piece and assumes that it is "old". The overall assumption by most collectors (and indeed I have said it myself plenty of times) is that all contemporary Fenton Carnival is Fenton or F marked.

Hopefully our discussion here will help others to be aware that a very small amount of Fenton's early Carnival output was not marked. There are usually other ways of ascertaining if the item is "new" or "old" if one is in doubt.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Anonymous

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Identifying an old Carnival piece
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2005, 06:52:39 PM »
Thanks to you all for your replies. Now I can be more confused than ever! I agree that this compote looks and feels like Fenton #8227, and we know that Fenton did produce this pattern in the 70's. What is confusing is that the old lady who brought the piece in has had it in her possession since long before 1970, and she states that it was her mothers before that. I don't believe or disbelieve her, but she becomes a bit more credible in that she is not attempting to pass this off as a valuable or unique piece.

Another discrepancy arises due to the documented fact that Fenton purchased this mold from US Glass (though I forget the actual year, another trip to the factory!). Surely US Glass used their mold before they sold it. Fenton did not use the mold until some years later. The Fenton historian also notes the overfired condition of this piece. While it is possible for the factory to release a piece in this condition, it would be a rarity. The specimen that he produced from their archives, which indeed is #8227, has very crisp features and the pedestal has no twisting whatsoever.

I told you I was confused!  You all are giving me more food for thought, and I can see that glassware in general can be stupefying at best, but please keep up the controversy about this and eventually we will know what this is (if we don’t already).

Thanks again, you guys and gals are a real asset.

 

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