Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. > USA
Identifying an old Carnival piece
Glen:
Hi Mark - your lovely item is Fenton's "Pinwheel Comport" #8227. I believe it was made in 1971 when Fenton introduced this pattern to its new Carnival range (Fenton's re-introduction of Carnival began in 1970).
Almost all contemporary Carnival from Fenton is marked with their logo (or a cursive F). However, there are some early amethyst items that were not marked at all - and these often cause confusion. Examples include Leaf Tiers nappies, Leaf Chain and Cherry Chain bowls, Fenton Flowers (Orange Tree) rosebowls and some Persian Medallion 9" plates.
They confuse the best of us at times. Allow me to tell you a story about one of the 9" Persian Medallion plates. The owner showed it to someone who probably knows more about Fenton than anyone else - Frank M. Fenton. He was unsure at first as he explained that the iridescence looked very much like it could have been an old one and was not at all like some of the newer ones. However, Frank compared the mystery plate to one in the Fenton Museum that was marked with the Fenton logo, and they were identical in every other way. Also, the Classic old examples have plain backs, whereas the new ones have Bearded Berry exteriors.
Frank agreed that undoubtedly some new Carnival (in the early 1970s) had indeed left the factory without the logo.
I am not aware of the compote having been made by U S Glass in Carnival.
This is just my opinion - feel free to disagree.
Glen
Glen:
Hi Connie - I was so busy writing my response that I didn't see yours.
We are of a like mind.
Glen
Connie:
Yes, Glen we agree :lol:
With regard to mark vs unmarked. It is my understanding that Fenton began marking pieces in 1970 with "Fenton" in the oval logo starting with new molds. However, it took them a number of years (3-5) to rework all their molds. So you can find pieces made as late as 1975 which is unmarked if they used a previously made mold.
Glen:
Connie - yes again :lol: and thank you.
I have items from the very first 1970 Carnival issue and they are marked with the Fenton oval. And then there are some subsequent items (very, very few) that are not marked. The problem undoubtedly comes when someone has an unmarked piece and assumes that it is "old". The overall assumption by most collectors (and indeed I have said it myself plenty of times) is that all contemporary Fenton Carnival is Fenton or F marked.
Hopefully our discussion here will help others to be aware that a very small amount of Fenton's early Carnival output was not marked. There are usually other ways of ascertaining if the item is "new" or "old" if one is in doubt.
Glen
Anonymous:
Thanks to you all for your replies. Now I can be more confused than ever! I agree that this compote looks and feels like Fenton #8227, and we know that Fenton did produce this pattern in the 70's. What is confusing is that the old lady who brought the piece in has had it in her possession since long before 1970, and she states that it was her mothers before that. I don't believe or disbelieve her, but she becomes a bit more credible in that she is not attempting to pass this off as a valuable or unique piece.
Another discrepancy arises due to the documented fact that Fenton purchased this mold from US Glass (though I forget the actual year, another trip to the factory!). Surely US Glass used their mold before they sold it. Fenton did not use the mold until some years later. The Fenton historian also notes the overfired condition of this piece. While it is possible for the factory to release a piece in this condition, it would be a rarity. The specimen that he produced from their archives, which indeed is #8227, has very crisp features and the pedestal has no twisting whatsoever.
I told you I was confused! You all are giving me more food for thought, and I can see that glassware in general can be stupefying at best, but please keep up the controversy about this and eventually we will know what this is (if we don’t already).
Thanks again, you guys and gals are a real asset.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version