Author Topic: Fleur de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thoughts.  (Read 124 times)

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Offline brucebanner

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Fleur de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thoughts.
« on: August 22, 2016, 07:38:32 PM »
Now i have searched the glass gallery for hours and give up, i bet Fred knows this one and Paul has the image, the lozenge is unreadable and it looks like a really well made piece, very detailed, at a guess 1860's?.

5 1/2 inches in height, 5 3/4 inches across the rim.

Regards Chris.
Chris Parry


Offline agincourt17

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Re: Fluer de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thought's.
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 09:00:47 PM »
Chris, back in 2012, I posted some pics of a celery with the same surface 'fleur de lys' pattern,  but I haven't seen a pedestal dish in this pattern before. See:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48236.msg276088.html#msg276088

That celery (and several other examples of it that I have come across since) had a peculiar lozenge (2 - V - X - ?) which, at the time, I though was for 2 February 1876 - Parcel 1. Now, of course, I know that this is one of those peculiar 'anomolous' or 'nonsensical' or 'peculiar' lozenges that crop up from time to time (because they don't have the correct sequence of digits and letters that a 'proper' registry date lozenge would possess).

At
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52787.msg299677.html#msg299677
I show a pedestal sugar/comport with the anomolous lozenge O-X-A-Y, but bearing a clear Henry Greener 1875-1885 demi-lion trademark.

Roy showed a 2-handled 'wine cooler' with a tree bark design and another 'peculiar lozenge (T? - X- X - 9) at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,53870.msg305604.html#msg305604
and the T? or sideways 'Y' is under the Class III ring seems suspiciously similar to that on your indistinct lozenge.

There has also been a thread at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50579.msg286077.html#msg286077
where Henry Greener is very lax with his use of lozenges, using the same lozenge on two completely different designs. In a similar vein, I also have some photos (yet to post) of a Henry Greener 'fans and roundels' dish bearing the lozenge for RD 322393 of 8 June 1878 which is, in fact, the lozenge normally found on a completely different Henry Greener design.

So now, whenever I come across a piece of glassware with a nonsensical registry date lozenge (especially if it has a superfluity of 'X's), my first impression is that the most likely culprit for its provenance is Henry Greener from somewhere between the late 1860s and 1885. That first impression may, of course, be quite wrong, but the pattern on my 'fleur de lys' celery and your 'fleur de lys' pedestal dish-cum-sugar is very similar indeed to the style and manner of design and quality of manufacture of quite a few of the early Henry Greener design registrations from the late 1860s right through into the late 1870s and even the early 1880s. (Perhaps, by then, the errant 'lozenge allocator' or dyslexic mould maker had been given his/their P45).

Fred.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: Fluer de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thought's.
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 09:08:02 PM »
I don't recall Fred  -  have I looked for this design previously?     Is it worth me searching 1860 - 1885, or have we tried that already, and failed?


Offline agincourt17

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Re: Fluer de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thought's.
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 09:10:46 PM »
Our posts seem to have crossed, Paul.

I suspect that a search for the pattern in the design registrations (even those of Henry Greener) would prove to be a wild goose chase.

Fred.



Offline brucebanner

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Re: Fluer de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thought's.
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 09:25:24 PM »
Hello Fred your vase has the same pattern it looks sun purpled, i thought the Angus Greener sugars in the glass gallery had a similar upper rim along with the dimples on the base.

The pressing on this one is very sharp.

Great memory by the way.
Chris Parry


Offline agincourt17

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Re: Fluer de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thought's.
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 09:49:31 PM »
Yes, Chris, that particular celery was very sun-purpled.

Looking now at the Angus & Greener RD 209161 pieces of 26 June 1867, there is indeed a noticeable stylistic similarity of decorative features to the rim on the 'fleur de lys' pieces. The last Angus & Greener design registration was RD 228782 of 20 April 1869, and the first Henry Greener registration was RD 231460 of 31 July 1869 so a putative Angus and Greener provenance could segue nicely with a Henry Greener provenance.

Fred.


Offline brucebanner

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Re: Fluer de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thought's.
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 10:13:13 PM »
It's by far the most detailed piece of Victorian pressed glass i have come across, who ever made the mould for this was really talented, even the underside of the base is detailed
Chris Parry


Offline Paul S.

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Re: Fleur de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thoughts.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 02:12:45 PM »
I don't think it's just the fleur-de-lis that's unreadable           Above details of some Rd. Nos. reads          ...........
..........   "the first Henry Greener registration was RD 231460 etc."   .........   and   ..........  "G.V. de Luca, London (RD 290855-7)."

I promptly looked at my images from Kew - and couldn't find them  -  so as I had a couple of other items to check I went to Kew  -  and still couldn't find them.                Moral of the story is......    if in doubt look in Thompson before you set out. ;)

As printed above these Nos. are typos, and correctly should have read..........     231430 ... and 298055 - 57.            The first one I have, but unfortunately still don't have the other three.

This morning I did find Rd. 315269 - Cleo's Needle from G.V. de Luca  -  pix attached - and understand, Fred, that some members have asked that you decipher the hieroglyphs for us.            So that's sixteen pints you owe me;D ;)

P.S.   To my eyes there's no doubt that the sun-purpled celery is a pattern match for the footed sugar from Chris yesterday  -  I appreciate that doesn't get us any further forward , but I just mention it for the sake of it so that we are aware they are from the same maker.


Offline agincourt17

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Re: Fleur de lis unreadable lozenge sugar thoughts.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 08:09:34 PM »
Thank you for the G.V. De Luca design representation pics, Paul.

Sorry about the typos - obviously my proofreading skills need honing.

Here are a couple of photos of De Luca's RD 315269 Cleopatra's Needle - one in blue, slightly-marbled glass, and the other with an opaque white top and a clear glass base.

I can tell you now, though, that the hieroglyphs on De Luca's 'needle' bear no relationship whatsoever to those on either the London version of the obelisk or its pair in New York or the obelisk in Paris. Indeed, it looks to me as if the De Luca 'hieroglyphs' seem to be largely cod or mock symbols bearing only occasional resemblance to true Egyptian hieroglyphs.

Fred.


 



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