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Author Topic: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?  (Read 1952 times)

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Offline Frank

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 11:29:27 AM »
I like "Match Mark" as it covers numbers, letters and symbols too. Also it is less ambiguous than "Tie".

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Offline Bernard C

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 09:06:40 AM »
I like "Match Mark" as it covers numbers, letters and symbols too. ...

I don't like any new term, so let's not introduce one.   If match mark was used in the USA, then let's leave it that way, and not globalise it.   Grateful thanks, Kristi, for looking it up.   I've been all through my books, and, like everyone else, can't find an expression for these marks.   I can't recall the source of my tie number, so, while I am sure that I didn't invent it, my interests are too diverse for me to be certain that it came from a glass context, so I would prefer to kill this expression, stone dead.

We can easily, succinctly, and unambiguously use a term like engraved stopper number, without inventing something new that is bound to cause confusion.    Also, as I understand it, such invention would be beyond the remit of this message board, see BOARD POLICY.

At times like this, I am mindful of a wonderful piece by the late William Heacock when discussing the Northwood (and Walsh) pattern Opaline Brocade (see the front cover of Eric's book).   He was obviously struggling with the original name, as we still do, as he wasn't sure whether the pattern was more properly just Brocade, with Opaline as the colour scheme, or whether it was always like that with Opaline Brocade indivisible.   He then invented a new name for it — Spanish Lace.   He had a tough enough time discussing patterns with two names, but three was just too much, and he lost it completely.

Bernard C.  8)
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Offline krsilber

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 08:08:53 AM »
I didn't look it up, I stumbled on it.

I don't know why just because a term is new to you, you think it's not worth using and recently invented.  Likewise, just because it's in an American book doesn't make it necessarily exclusively American.  The glossary of the publication I found it in is pretty conservative, not given to lots of far-out nomenclature.  It's a small part of a two-volume set published in 1994, a well-researched treatment of the extensive American glass collection of the Toledo Museum of Art, which oversaw the project.

Match mark is more generally used in other trades as well to denote parts that go together.  At least it is in America.  Do you also reject the terms Amberina and Burmese because they were coined in the US?  Golly.
Kristi


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Offline Ron

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2008, 11:29:18 PM »
I too thought if the name of the book had been Wilson's British Glass 1760-1930 it would have been more readily accepted by Bernard.

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Offline Frank

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2008, 09:34:38 AM »
Language continually evolves and despite resistance in UK, American terms and spelling are increasingly common amongst the International English community. Very little software comes with UK English as an option these days, particularly kids sites. American spelling does eliminate some of the tongue twisting silent letters that do nothing but complicate learning the language. Although I prefer UK English by nature I also think it has had its day and should be unified into a single language - nothing to do with nationalism, just improving communication. Match number makes so much sense.

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2008, 09:48:57 AM »
On the subject of UK and US English there are many instances where the US spelling or meaning is actually one that is now obsolete in the UK (Bill Bryson has much to say on the matter), so round we go again...

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Offline krsilber

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2008, 09:32:17 PM »
Yes indeed, language continually evolves, especially in the glass world (at least in the US).  Unfortunately, ebay seems to have had an impact here on some words - misuse becomes rampant, spreading through the US ebay "community."  "Bristol" is a good example, IMO.

I think I should clarify what I said earlier.  I don't necessarily think everybody should start using the term "match mark."  If it's so obscure in the US and UK that it would require an explanation whenever it's used, I don't think it's of much value.  My point was that the fact that I found a term none of us had heard of doesn't necessarily mean it's new or restricted to America (though the latter may well be true).  I think it's more likely that it's an old term from the glass industry.  It seems to me there was a quite diverse terminology used by glass companies of the past that we are unfamiliar with, partly because the language has become more standardized.  "Match mark" (or its synonyms) is also not the kind of term that is likely to appear in many glass books since it's not really a feature of the glassmaking or decorating process, but instead a logistical aspect.  I haven't scoured the literature for a term for it, as Bernard has, but I can't remember ever reading about it in a book.  Maybe that says more about the breadth of my reading, though!

One very good reason to not use the term is that it also means a bit of glass that has seeped between parts of a mold, so it could get confusing.  I knew this when I wrote my other post, but chose to ignore it (bad Kristi!).

Incidentally, while Googling the term, I came across a quite extensive glass glossary:
http://www.museumoflondonarchaeology.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FCBB7609-4C5A-48A1-9082-F42EBA062F4B/0/post92molglass_glos.pdf
Unfortunately, it's not alphabetized.  (Does anyone know what a "reputed quart" is?  The term is used in this glossary when discussing volumes of vessels.)

Kristi


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Offline Ivo

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2008, 10:05:07 PM »
I would say that since the appearance of the internet a vast amount of misused and abused terms and other glass myths have been debunked- including the word "Bristol".  The number of seriously researched books which have been published in the last ten years is unprecedented. That there is a whole community out there who use their own inadequate terminology to sell things on ebay does not mean it has become common usage or acceptable. Looking through the listings you will soon see that there are but few sellers who get it right, and some who get it so blatantly wrong that you just want to switch off your computer stante pede.

I don't get the discussion about the "match mark" as this is a descriptive term and not glass specific; you may use whatever term you find fit to describe the corresponding marks. Depending on whom you write it for you might want to describe it a little further. That's all there is to it.

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Offline krsilber

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Re: Decanters — "Tie Number" / "Tie Letter" — Is this the correct name?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2008, 06:08:26 AM »
I would say that since the appearance of the internet a vast amount of misused and abused terms and other glass myths have been debunked- including the word "Bristol".  The number of seriously researched books which have been published in the last ten years is unprecedented.  Learning from those books requires people to read them! That there is a whole community out there who use their own inadequate terminology to sell things on ebay does not mean it has become common usage or acceptable.  Not acceptable, no.  However, ebay in the US is a HUGE phenomenon, and unfortunately influential.  Many glass collectors actually refer to it hoping for good information! Looking through the listings you will soon see that there are but few sellers who get it right, and some who get it so blatantly wrong that you just want to switch off your computer stante pede.   Amen to that, brother!  (Hmmm, is that an American expression?)

Example of ebay's influence:  I raised the "Bristol" issue in another forum recently, and here's one of the replies from someone I like and respect (though don't always agree with):  "I did a quick check on Ebay for a Bristol vase and found items similar to what I had posted, so if that is a term accepted by a large number of the collecting community over here then that is what I’ll call it over here."
Kristi


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