Author Topic: Loetz, Walsh or something else? ID=Walsh 'Mother-of-Pearl'  (Read 1940 times)

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Offline Chris Harrison

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Loetz, Walsh or something else? ID=Walsh 'Mother-of-Pearl'
« on: April 09, 2008, 09:48:18 AM »
I bought this at auction in a large lot in 2000 (I think).

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9811
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9810
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9812
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9813
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9814
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9809

It's pretty and irridescent, and is definitely of quality.  The finish is faintly crackled if you look closely.
Polished pontil, but no maker's mark or signature that I can find.  It has nice wear to the base so, if repro, it's probably not recent.

Going by the "6-pointed star" draping, I first thought it might be Powell, but apparently the finish is wrong.

3 or 4 years ago, a similar bowl on eBay was described as a "Loetz Coppelia bowl". It fetched £60 or so with lots of bidders.
 
I've seen a similar shape (taller) with the same finish described as being by John Walsh Walsh. 

Can anyone confirm an ID for me?
Thanks.


Offline Andy

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2008, 10:10:43 AM »
Hi Chris,
doesnt look quite the same as Coppelia, go to
http://www.loetz.com/
click on decors index on the left, and you can find some examples.

Regards
Andy
"Born to lose, Live to win." Ian (Lemmy) Kilmister Motorhead (1945-????)


Online Lustrousstone

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2008, 10:54:00 AM »
If the crackle is in the iridescence, carnival people call it stretch iridescence   


Offline Chris Harrison

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 11:11:41 AM »
Thanks, guys.

Andy, I've been going to that site for years, and still can't make up my mind!  I think I really need to get your paws on a piece and get the feel, but I've never seen one in the glass, as it were.  I've had my doubts from the start, and have seen nothing to help me climb off the fence.

Christine, that's grand. 

http://www.shetlarglass.com/
has some very interesting info about manufacturing, including how the decor is produced.  I've always wondered.


Offline nigel benson

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 12:12:21 PM »
Hi Chris,

This looks suspiciously like John Walsh Walsh 'Vesta Venetian' to me. See Fieldings Auctions 'Three Centuries of Glass' sale, 12 April 08 for two similar lots - 652 and 670.

Nigel


Offline Bernard C

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2008, 12:42:07 PM »
Chris — A beauty.

... and thanks for counting the pattern repeats.

It is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl, 100%, no question at all.   Production period uncertain, but most examples seem to date from the 1890s to the early 1920s in my opinion.

Their swags/drapes dip-moulded pattern is not one of their best known, but, by chance, I happen to have another similar example in stock.

The lovely crackle effect is not particularly common.   Previously I've only seen it on their seaweed decorated cornucopiae with twiggy feet, again with well-flared rims (for an example see Gulliver p91, and, yes, that example is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl).   It came about because of the difference in melting points of the two different types of glass used.

A tiny gather of an opaque or semi-opaque white opal, probably a lampshade glass, was cased in further layers of clear or coloured glass to make Walsh Mother-of-Pearl.   After dip-moulding and blowing to the required shape and size, it was transferred to the pontil rod for finishing the rim.   At this point, when flaring and/or crimping the rim, the slightly higher melting point of the white opal sometimes caused the crackle effect as it started to solidify while the rim was being stretched into shape.   Note that the rim on your vase was crimped by the use of a former.   The final process before cracking off the pontil rod was iridising, using a muffle oven.

Finally, to avoid confusion, you should always include the word Walsh with Mother-of-Pearl when describing this glass, also noting that it is not air-trap.   What happened was that back in the mists of time one of the American glassworks used the term Mother-of-Pearl as a name for their range of air-trap glass.   This expression, often abbreviated to MOP, then became standard collector terminology for air-trap in the USA.   Hence the need for clarification.

Nigel — Vesta Venetian can be found in Walsh Mother-of-Pearl and other styles.   The salient feature of Vesta Venetian is that it was ribbed, twisted, and then ribbed again using the same dip-mould, usually 18-rib, giving the effect of threading under vertical ribs.   The first example and the second shallow bowl are both (also both 18-rib, also the foot on the first looks to be 16-rib, as expected);  the second posy is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl, but not Vesta Venetian.   Fielding's text is slightly confusing;  possibly either a semi-colon or exchanging the two descriptions would have helped.

Bernard C.  8)

NB — The URL for citing this reply:- http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20739.msg117233.html#msg117233
Text and Images Copyright 200414 Bernard Cavalot


Offline Glen

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 03:05:28 PM »
The crackle effect is what Carnival and Stretch Glass collectors may call an "onion skin" effect. Simply put, in Carnival and Stretch, the onion skin effect is caused by ruffling, shaping, or flaring the glass after it has been iridised - thus causing the iridescence to produce the stretch (onion skin) effect. Carnival Glass, on the other hand, was (usually, not always) shaped first and then iridised and thus does not usually have a stretch effect.

Glen

EDITED TO ADD SOME PHOTOS OF "STRETCH" CARNIVAL- if anyone is interested

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Offline Chris Harrison

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2008, 06:13:32 PM »
Wow! Thank you all - Bernard in particular.

I'm glad you mentioned the use of the rim former.  One reason for my hesitation was the fact that the crimping is perfect.  I was doing my best to imagine the gaffer, jacks in hand, measuring the spacing by eye, and marvelling at the skill involved!


Offline pamela

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2008, 06:28:10 PM »
a Fenton stretch glass vase donated to my museum in 2005 - thanks again!
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/vasen/03113.html
Pamela
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http://www.glas-musterbuch.de

Experience teaches that anyone who begins to collect in any field can feel a change in his soul. He becomes a joyful man filled with a deeper empathy, and a more open understanding of worldly things moves his soul.    (Alfred Lichtwark 1852 1914)


Offline Bernard C

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Re: Loetz, Walsh or something else?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2008, 02:59:08 AM »
I have had three queries on my previous reply by email.   I don't usually respond to such emails, as I think those making such enquiries should join and use this message board, and emailed replies don't benefit from the critical and informed reviews of this membership.   However they are areas that would benefit from clarification, so here goes.

Quote from: Bernard C
... for an example see Gulliver p91, and, yes, that example is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl ...

Q. How do you know?

A. I actually bought that particular vase from Mervyn Gulliver, so had the chance to inspect it.   The inner opal layer of Walsh Mother-of-Pearl could be stretched so thinly as to become almost invisible.   This was particularly the case with epergne flutes, and a cornucopia is just an epergne flute with a twist in the tail.   The crackle effect was almost invisible as well, but still definitely present. 

Quote from: Bernard C
... Vesta Venetian can be found in Walsh Mother-of-Pearl and other styles.   The salient feature of Vesta Venetian is that it was ribbed, twisted, and then ribbed again using the same dip-mould, usually 18-rib, giving the effect of threading under vertical ribs.   The first example and the second shallow bowl are both (also both 18-rib, also the foot on the first looks to be 16-rib, as expected) ...

Q. Why "as expected"?

A. When a single piece was made from two or more components, two separate teams of glassmakers were involved, timing their work so that the components would be available and at the correct temperature at the precise moment they were required.   I've seen this at Formia on Murano, and it is the most wonderful split-second choreography, made even more amazing by the glassmakers having an argument about last week's football results or whatever.   It makes ballet dancers look like amateurs!   Anyway, all Vesta Venetian made from two ribbed components, such as an added Vesta Venetian foot or ribbed handle, required the use of two ribbed dip-moulds, one for each team.   And there seems to have been just the one 18-rib mould at the Walsh glassworks.   So the second team used a 16-rib mould, the nearest size available.   The 18-rib dip-mould seems to have been reserved exclusively for Vesta Venetian until production ceased, when it was occasionally used on the later Walsh Iridescent range.   Most such Vesta Venetian is this 18-rib / 16-rib combination.   Note that I am not talking about separate items like lids here.   Also note that I couldn't have written all this had I not been counting pattern repeats for some years.

Quote from: Bernard C
... Note that the rim on your vase was crimped by the use of a former. ...

Q. Was all crimping by former?

A. No.   Walsh also used hand crimping, particularly on small cupped bowls, and it can be quite distinctive.   I've never seen a completely swung random crimped rim, such as you see on some early Whitefriars pieces, but I suspect that some pieces were crimped by former and then swung.

Bernard C.  8)
Text and Images Copyright 200414 Bernard Cavalot

 

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