Author Topic: Cloudy Bottle  (Read 2601 times)

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Offline Hotglass

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Cloudy Bottle
« on: August 01, 2005, 10:30:40 PM »
A mystery cloudy bottle
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/Glassmessages/P7047800.jpg) (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b306/Glassmessages/P7047796a.jpg)

Well formed (mold blown I guess) BUT has trash in it and the cloudyness seems to be ...................... a mistake ? or is it ?
End of day ? Old ? A bottle or a vase ?
Why go to the trouble of polishing the flat gound base ?
8inch 20cm
Thanks for your opinions and info


Offline chopin-liszt

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2005, 11:05:53 PM »
:D Hello Ed, Thanks for you attribution of the modern day Loetz! It had us all stumped. I strongly suspect Maltese glass here. I take it it is quite heavy?
Cheers, Sue (M)

“All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” Friedrich Nietzsche


Offline Ivo

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2005, 07:05:21 AM »
I suggest you clean it up (chlorine bleach will get rid of organic deposits), and  take a picture of the underside. The model is a bottle vase, popular in the 60ies. If the underside is polished flat it would be a vase for certain - also, as a decanter it sucks. Possible makers: Johansfors, Kastrup, Empoli or one of the Belgians. It may have had a large hanging globular stopper at one time (check on the neck) in which case it may be by Flavio Poli.
Ivo
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Offline Hotglass

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2005, 08:32:50 AM »
Thank you both for your comments.

I saw the similarity with 1960's bottle vases but I have never seen one of those, with this kind of clowdy glass, which is what has confused me. I'm still not sure if the cloudiness is wholely deliberate or not. Over the past 2 or 3 years I've owned it I have examined it many times, at first with a thought of getting rid of it but then, finding myself fascinated once more.  

Oftentimes I will wash it, initially, to try and see if I can get rid of any more dirt from the inside to make it clearer, last time, using the little copper balls to dislodge any deposits. I fancy it has improved a little but it's hard to know if thats not just my imagination, so marginal is the difference.  

The surface often feels greasy after a while. As it used to be in the kitchen I thought nothing of it but I noticed it again yesterday and last night washed the outside only.

This morning ....something very strange. With very clean hands I ran my fingers down the outside. At the neck and shoulder, where its most cloudy, it's dry as a bone, but just above half way, where it begins to clear, my fingers did an involunatry slide to the base!!! I tried it again ....same thing. Excess washing up liquid ? Or am I going nuts ?
 
Sue, Mdina did cross my mind, fleetingly and at 750 grams it is fairly heavy for it's size but dismissed the idea as I have seen no Mdina with this type of cloudyness or in this orangy amber. I own 6 or so pieces of Mdina but no bottle vase with which to compare it. Maybe I should get one.

Ivo, I will photograph the base. I didn't think it would be very interesting. There is what looks like normal age wear but I have no way of knowing how much age that implies. The pattern of wear suggests that the base is not 100% flat but it stands well and I cannot feel the irregularity. Photographing it to show the wear will be tricky but I shall try.

There is no evidence to suggest that a stopper hung by the neck (with wire ?). There are a couple of tool mark lines running horizontally round the inside of the neck but no roughness to suggest that a stopper was used.

I omitted to mention that there are a few very dark small irregular objects grouped together within the glass about half way down in one area. Again I am confused as the whether these are a mistake or deliberate.

All these peculiarities lead me to consider that it was a bottle of greater age to be used with a cork, cheaply and quickly made, to serve some fairly mundane function, from left-over cullet. But as you rightly point out a polished base is inconsistent with that theory.

Sometimes I think the intention was to replicate the natural irregularities found in geologial amber including perhaps the suggestion of trapped insects. But the cloudyness would not seem to fit in with that either.... would it ?

Finally, there would seem to be two layers of glass here, the first, being paler, more cloudy and prodeominating towards to top and the second darker, more orangey,  perhaps completely clear, predominating towards the base. In between, in the uppar half, there are many trapped air bubbles, mostly very tiny. the larger ones look squashed flat.

Thank you for your attention and consideration.


Offline chopin-liszt

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2005, 09:05:07 AM »
:D Hi, I deliberately said Maltese rather than Mdina, as Mtarfa or even Phoenician crossed my mind. have you tried soaking it in strong biological washing liquid? That will shift anything organic, along with your magic balls. It's hard to tell from your description whether the cloudy amber-like qualities are from muck or in the glass! Your description of "frit"/ impurities and bubbles makes me lean towards earlier Mdina, but the regularity of the shape makes it later-earlier (if you know what I mean!).
The only thing that puts me off Maltese is your description of greasiness. There is a thread about this at:-

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,395.0.html

I may be able to post a picture of something I have that is similar, but with a stopper, later on. It is something that I bought believing it to be at least related to Maltese glass - either Mdina/Mtarfa/Phoenician or early Isle of Wight, although I think it is a bit heavy for IoW. I won't get it until tonight, but I shall measure and weigh it!

Apologies for seeming to contradict you Ivo. I would be very happy to stand corrected by you and your far superior knowledge of glass, in the long run! I think this bears further debate. I'm very curious because of the piece I'm getting later! Obviously, correct attribution is the most desirable outcome. :D:D:D
Cheers, Sue (M)

“All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” Friedrich Nietzsche


Anonymous

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2005, 10:14:11 AM »
I'd go along happily with maltese!
Ivo


Offline Hotglass

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2005, 11:29:22 AM »
Quote
It's hard to tell from your description whether the cloudy amber-like qualities are from muck or in the glass!


Sorry Sue, for the confusion. I shall try to be clearer but that partly reflects my own confusion.

There is definately cloudyness within the glass and a certain amount of cloudyness was intended, I think. But maybe it came out more cloudy than intended.

What I don't know is if deposits of some kind on the inside are making it look more cloudy than it should. I am beginning to suspect that it has become more cloudy with time but I really have no way of knowing that for sure.

I think my washing so far has made it a little clearer than it was when I got it. That could partly be just dust and accumulated dirt.  I have used undiluted vinegar, ordinary washing up liquid and maybe salt. I thought bleach might make it worse.

If there are desposits inside I dont think they are organic / biological. There is no smell to the inside and the cloudyness is very varigated ....not at all even which is what I would expect if there was something organic going on. Some patches are almost clear.

However the greasyness is making me wonder if there is not some kind of chemical reaction happening. At this stage I'm ready to consider any possibility !!! Could it be "sick" glass ?

Maybe but the base, where I would expect most "sickness" if caused by damp ...is the clearest part of the whole thing !

Thank you again for your time and consideration.


Offline chopin-liszt

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2005, 10:28:19 AM »
:D:D:D
Hello again, apologies for the delay, I've been very busy with family staying, the Conference in Perth, and being wiped out after doing too much (ME/chronic fatigue).

Anyway, this has been quite exciting! I was very curious about my piece, but I think we can, fairly safely, say Mdina for both.

I went to investigate a bottle I have recently acquired that was of the same dimensions as yours, but with a very definite early Mdina pattern in it, and found...... it was slippery! I weighed it, (without the stopper) and found it is 650 grams, but it is thin for Mdina (see pictures).

I have also taken pictures of the "amber-like" bottle vase I have that I think is similar in design to yours, only yellows rather than oranges. This bottle weighs 600 grams (without the stopper). It is a fair bit smaller than the one the same size as yours. I do not yet know if it will go slippery.

Both of my bottles have typical Mdina stoppers.

I think the slipperiness is probably in keeping with early Mdina, as they did tend to use fairly poor quality glass in the beginning. I am now starting to go around my bits, checking for slipperiness, and have found it on a few pieces. I'd never noticed this before!

http://tinypic.com/aayvky.jpg
http://tinypic.com/aayvs5.jpg
http://tinypic.com/aayvyv.jpg
http://tinypic.com/aayz4o.jpg

The base of my "amber-style" one is polished flat (- ish!), which is in keeping with what you say about yours!
Cheers, Sue (M)

“All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” Friedrich Nietzsche


Offline nigel benson

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Cloudy bottle
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2005, 10:57:28 AM »
Hi All,

I agree with Sue - Mdina.

I have owned two of these bottles/vases, with exactly the same form and sort of size (from memory) for 12 or so years. I was given them by an elderly friend who had also owned them for some years. She gave them to me when she moved and I recall she said they were from Malta.

I cannot recall the colours exactly (they are not out at present) although I do know one had this sort of toffee/fawn colouring. Both have flat, ground and polished bases. I have never felt that they were anything else but Mdina - but missing the stoppers. Of course there is no evidence that there should be a stopper since they are always so loose fitting. I've just always felt they demand a stopper and when putting in a spare one that I happen to have it feels/looks correct - but that's no proof of course. Lastly, I have always assumed them to be early on stylistic grounds, and if using Jackson "20th Century Factory Glass" this seems to be confirmed  where she says that early pieces (1969-72) were not marked.

I hope this helps a tad, Nigel :)


Offline chopin-liszt

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Cloudy Bottle
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2005, 11:25:07 AM »
:D:lol::lol:
Thank-you Nigel! I have to say I felt a certain amount of trepidation when I saw you'd replied here - I though I might be shot down in flames!
My gut reaction to the amber-like yellow piece, as soon as I saw it, however, was early Mdina.
Cheers, Sue (M)

“All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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