Unusual blue crown dish with a very strange reg diamond

[BJB]

Hi all,

I have just bought a very large selection of glass, and am still going through it all, but this thing has caught me eye as it is so strange!

It is a lidded dish, with some damage, modeled as a crown in pale blue glass.

http://i25.tinypic.com/rkoche.jpg


But its the registration diamond that is strange.

http://i26.tinypic.com/2w317pc.jpg

The class number at the top is 1 which is for metal, glass is 111 (3), but the rest of the number is  W (February)  G (1865)  14 for the day and parcel no.8  I think.


Can anyone help?

Barbara

Mod: Pics added below

[Frank]

Presumably also made in metal. Possibly related to Prince Consort's death... to early for silver jubilee. Cannot think of other relevant events c'65.

Try searching for metal examples there might be some documented.

[BJB]

Hi Frank

I have just got my glasses on and have found in the back of Jenny Thompsons book an entry for the 14th Feb 1865, which reads I think

Date of deposit      No Of Parcel    No of design   Name of Proprietor 

14 feb 1865               8                  183593          Alfred Edmond Edwards

Address of Proprietor

Alver Cottage Twickenham Green
Middlesex

But nothing for metal, unless the mould was metal and he forgot to change the number?

[mhgcgolfclub]

Hi

The same crown dish made in vaseline glass is shown on page 154 of Barrie Skelcher's The Big Book of Vaseline Glass

Roy

[Anne]

I have just got my glasses on and have found in the back of Jenny Thompsons book an entry for the 14th Feb 1865, which reads I think

Date of deposit      No Of Parcel    No of design   Name of Proprietor 

14 feb 1865               8                  183593          Alfred Edmond Edwards

Address of Proprietor

Alver Cottage Twickenham Green
Middlesex

But nothing for metal, unless the mould was metal and he forgot to change the number?

Hi Barbara, It's quite hard to read isn't it, but the number is 183593, by Alfred Edmund Edwards, and under the date in tiny letters it says Classes I & IV.

The British Library help page on registered designs gives:    
Class 1    Metal
Class 4    Glass, earthenware, porcelain

I haven't find anything about A E Edwards though - wonder who he was?

Wikipedia says Prince Albert died in 1861, so a bit too early for this crown I'd have thought.

[BJB]

Hi Anne,

It is strange isn't it, metal and earthernware but no glass!

I can't find anything about him either, maybe an amatuer maker?

Barbara

[Frank]

Glass was there, see Annes post. There are a couple of Edwards amongst the potteries in Staffs. The registrant address often is the company address where the company is not named. But of course he could also be a commissioning factor. Registering a design could easily happen several years after the design was first used so only 4 years later is close enough. Would his crown have gone on a cushion on the coffin for the service?

[BJB]

I have no idea if the crown was made for the funeral, but if it was do you think it would be in a darker colour glass, as Queen Victoria went into deep mourning as did everyone else, and bright blue is a little bright and a bit in your face.

I don't think Queen Victoria would have been amused 

[Frank]

It could have been a good seller after the event so they just added a more colourful range, the piece could have been in production for many years.

[Anne]

Hi Anne,

It is strange isn't it, metal and earthenware but no glass!

I can't find anything about him either, maybe an amateur maker?

Barbara

I found an Alfred E Edwards on the 1861 Census, age 33,  living in 4 Marlborough Hill Gardens, Marylebone, occupation sculptor. I wonder if this was the same man? I'll have a look through trade directories later - the site is down at the moment.

[mrvaselineglass]

Last April (2007), I came across this listing at the KEW in their public search area (but can't find it now).  I did a 'image capture, and have the illustration on my computer.  there were notes under the item: "This design was also registered in Class I - Metal, Class III - Glass, as well as  in this class, Class IV - Earthenwares.  This means that the same design could be used for a variety of objects of the same form, but made from different materials.  Multiple class registration is often used by manufacturers of cosmetic/perfume containers."

This piece was registered as a "class 4, ornamental design for a jar."

I have seen the vaseline glass version that had the diamond lozenge marking on the inside of the dish.  Now, here is the kicker:  I have seen (have the photo SOMEPLACE in my computer!) of an opaque blue version, with a raised marking on the inside of the base, and it said BACCARAT.   So, It looks like the person who registered the design also used it with at least one other manufacturer.  It is not known who pressed the vaseline glass version for ALFRED EDMUND EDWARDES, Alver Cottage, Twickenham Green, Middlesex.  The Catalog ref. for the Image details are: BT 43/68.  The Registration details for No. 183953 is catalog ref. no. BT 44/8.  OH, the official listing at the KEW, shows the last name as EDWARDES with the extra 'E'. 

Hope this helps!
Dave Peterson
aka: Mr. Vaseline Glass

[Ivo]

This rather spectacular inkwell (with a bit of damage on the inside) has a large, prominent Rd. lozenge on the bottom and the date translates to January 14, 1865. However, the class is I not III and so the lozenge finder comes up with no registration for parcel 8 on that date.

So it was not registered as a glass design - is it possible to figure out who made it?

[Anne]

Ivo, I think your 14 January 1865 should be 14 February 1865 which states class III, also classes I & IV, with a parcel number of 8.

It's given as design 183953, proprietor Alfred Edmund Edwardes, Alver Cottage, Twickenham Green, Middlesex. Sadly no clue as to what the design relates to though. The reference is page 101 of Jenny Thompson's The Identification of English Pressed Glass.

We've discussed this previously here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21696.0.html (the Alver Cottage rang a dim bell in my memory!!!)

[Ivo]

Okay - perfect answer.

There you go:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/designregisters/propitemdetail.asp?item_id=183953&proprietor=14&page=1

We have a name, a date and the hunch that Baccarat may have been involved in the production - which does not surprise me seeing the outrageous colour, quality and finish.

If you wish to merge these threads, go ahead.

[UKGLASS]

Hi there
I had this piece about 15 years ago and found the same problem, you are correct that the class is not glass. It is in fact metal.  I had the opportunity to discuss it with Raymond Slack and the concensus of opinion was that it was originally produced in metal as an inkwell & registered as such, for whatever reason a glass manufacturer was then able to reproduce it in glass, alliances between glass and metal manufacturers was of course quite common. Only problem is Im damned if I can remember who the original metal maker was.
UKGLASS
Having read Ivos post i think its fair to say we now know who the metal maker was, certainley never heard of Alfred Edmund Edwardes as a glass maker, still no closer to who produced the glass unfortunately.