Author Topic: FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass  (Read 2664 times)

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Offline David E

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« on: August 22, 2005, 01:53:53 PM »
NOTE: The earlier postings didn't assume the glass was fake.

Following on from the other thread, following are some photos of the green Northwood 'Grape & Cable' dish/bowl ('sans' stippling :wink:)

EDIT: Click thumbnails to enlarge  :oops:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-northwood_grape-cable1.jpg) : (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-northwood_grape-cable2.jpg)

It features a frilled and notched 'pie-crust' rim and a footed base with the letter 'N' embossed in the centre. Absolutely pristine condition with not even any base wear — looks like it just walked out of the shop. It measures 8½" (21.5cm) diameter and 2" (5cm) tall.

My query concerns which category it falls into. The footed base makes me think "bowl" and according to David Doty's site this would appear to fall under the category "Bowls, 8-9 inches, pie crust edge".

Also, can anyone define the dates this bowl was produced.
David
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Offline Glen

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2005, 02:19:28 PM »
Well first the date - and the info comes from "Carnival Glass The Magic & The Mystery".

Grape and Cable was marketed in 1910 and I can find sporadic appearances as late as 1918. Harry Northwood passed away in 1919, and the company really didn't have the same impetus after his death as before, even though it limped on for a while.

The item you illustrate is a bowl with a piecrust edge. The base is called a "collar base" (your photo shows the marie).

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
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Offline David E

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2005, 02:41:25 PM »
Wow, thanks Glen – so no later than 1918. Amazing considering the condition it's in.  :D

OK, think I need to buy the book...  :wink:
David
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Offline David E

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FAKE Grape and Cable
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2005, 04:25:42 PM »
Further to private mails with Glen, it has been determined that this piece is actually repro/fake :cry:

Glen has kindly provided a link to demonstrate the differences:

http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/FakeGCable.html

So when I stated "... looks like it just walked out of the shop." I wasn't wrong!  :evil:
David
► The Curious History of the Bulb Vase ◄
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Offline Glen

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2005, 05:34:18 PM »
David and I have been emailing and swapping info on this most interesting Grape and Cable fake. It’s a wonderful “educational” piece and a real talking point.

He has taken some excellent photos of the base that show one of the main characteristics of the Far Eastern fakes - the simple bold letter N.

The original Northwood pieces that have the N mark have a letter N that is underlined and in a circle.

On the early fakes, the base (marie) was iridised. This is a way to spot most modern Carnival, but as a method of identification it needs to be treated with caution as rather a lot of European (old) Carnival also has traces of iridescence on the base. Most Classic, old USA Carnival will have no iridescence on the base.

But - David’s fake Grape & Cable has no iridescence on the base! The fakers have spotted that little trick (perhaps they’ve been reading my articles).

There is another tell-tale characteristic on David’s fake though - and his photos are the absolute very best I have seen of such a feature. The outer rim of the base is ground (polished). Note the original Northwood examples are not ground.

So, to sum up, the single most telling characteristic on the fakes (Grape & Cable, Good Luck, Peacocks) still seems to be that they have a bold letter N on the base. It is not underlined and is not in a circle. That’s the fake. The genuine Northwood pieces have the N underlined and in a circle.  Look also for a ground and polished rim to the base. That's not the old Northwood piece.

Thanks to David for his excellent photos that I am sure he will post to show everyone.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline David E

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2005, 05:45:15 PM »
Well, thanks for the compliments, Glen! [blush] 8)

Following are the 'spot the deliberate mistake' photos:

:shock: click any thumbnail to enlarge :shock:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-northwood_grape-cable3.jpg) : (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-carnival-fake2.jpg) : (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-carnival-fake4.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-carnival-fake5.jpg) : (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-carnival-fake6.jpg)

The grind marks in the last two photos are of the same area at a different angle and the wheel marks can be clearly seen — I'll leave Glen to explain the technical side  :?

I hope these help someone (but not the repro-merchants, of course...)
David
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Offline Glen

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2005, 07:19:49 PM »
Thanks again David, for those truly excellent photos.

I'll write more ASAP re. the ground base (stuck up)...but right now a family birthday is pressing  :lol:

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline Glen

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2005, 07:13:14 AM »
I'm back with a little bit more time now. The balloons and cards have been put away (but I didn't manage to get one of the delicious looking chocolates in the big gold box, all tied up with a pretty ribbon....sigh  :roll:)

So, I'll try and explain why the base of the fake Grape & Cable is so significant.

Snapped Up

On pretty much all USA original Classic Carnival Glass (with one or two exceptions), the glass was "snapped up". This took place after pressing:- the piece was removed from the mould, technically “snapped up,” by a tool which has clamp-like spring loaded jaws, known as a “snap”. This was attached to the collar base of the glass item (the marie). At this stage, hand finishing could take place. The piece would be “warmed in” (re-heated) at a glory hole to make it pliable again. Vases could be swung to give height and the edges of bowls were ruffled and crimped in a variety of ways to give individuality.

The item would be held by the snap, which covered the marie, and when the iridising spray was applied to the Carnival pieces, the snap would pretty much cover the entire base - thus the base (marie) would not get iridised. These pieces had no need to be ground and they have smooth, as-moulded bases.

Stuck Up

On most (not all by any means) European Carnival, the items were "stuck up". These items have a ground base (no marie) and were attached to a hot metal punty rod after being extracted from the mould. The punty had been heated so that the glass would stick fast to it. After being finished (shaped), the piece had to be broken from the punty, and this left a rough base which had to be ground flat. The factory term for this was stuck-up. Often the grinding caused small chips and flakes on the stuck-up base. Such chips are a feature of the manufacture and are very common on ground bases. Often traces of iridescence can be seen on the base of European Carnival.

The Fake Grape & Cable

David's fake Grape and Cable has been ground flat - you can see the grinding and associated marks clearly on his close-ups. The original Northwood items have collar bases and they have not been ground. This is a very clear characteristic that shows the fake item.

It's worth mentioning that not all the fakes (this includes the Good Luck and Peacocks) have ground bases. Some have collar bases! But the one thing that so far is a characteristic of all these fakes is the large N mark (without the underlining and without the circle). David's photos show it clearly.

Not all Northwood Carnival is marked with the N (underlined in a circle). The lack of a trademark doesn’t hurt the desirability of the glass, but note that the presence of an N mark doesn’t always guarantee authenticity either - as it may be on one of those fakes.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline David E

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2005, 08:41:45 AM »
Glen, many thanks for that clear and concise explanation. Very interesting that the iridising process itself can be a key to spotting a fake! Looking at the other Carnival Glass it does make it easier to distinguish, much of the time, between the difference of Euro and US Carnival Glass manufacturers.

The last photo I will post on this subject is a close-up of the Grape & Cable pattern as this might have some significance.
 
:shock: click to enlarge :shock:  

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/dencill/05-08-26/t-carnival-fake7.jpg)

Although havng a very precise and well-executed finish, it is noticeable that some of the grapes are slightly squashed! Not sure how this compares to the genuine article, but may be another area to spot the fake.
David
► The Curious History of the Bulb Vase ◄
 A new book by Patricia Coccoris

Contact ► Cortex Design ◄ to order any book


Offline Glen

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FAKE Northwood 'Grape & Cable' Carnival Glass
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2005, 01:25:34 PM »
The squashed grapes are interesting - I haven't seen that feature on any of my Grape & Cable examples, though I wouldn't rule it out. I have seen the squashed grape effect, however, on several examples of Imperial's Heavy Grape (an old Classic piece). The grapes (indeed the entire pattern) on Imperial's Heavy Grape is much bolder and deeper than the Northwood G&C. I suspect that the squashed effect was caused by not quite enough glass in the mould - so it didn't quite fill the space between mould and plunger. (Or it's possible that there was a little difficulty getting it out of the mould/plunger).

My theory anyhow.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

 

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