Author Topic: perhaps sklo union......hot worked  (Read 2610 times)

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Offline nigel benson

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 01:46:08 PM »
Hiya,

OK, here we go.........

Maybe, "Post-war Czech" ? or simply "Czech" ?

I don't think that there is any reason to get too complicated ;)

Kind wishes, Nigel


Offline Pip

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 02:16:21 PM »
I was just going to say the same as Nigel - Sklo Union pressed glass is called Sklo Union and the hotworked Czech production is called Czech (that's what it's usually referred to on here anyway) - I can't see the need to change since it's not been a problem or cause for confusion.


Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 02:36:28 PM »
Me playing devil's advocate again  >:D The Sklo Union factories were not the only Czech companies making pressed glass. So Sklo Union glass, Czech pressed glass and Czech hot worked glass (although the term Marcus uses is off-hand I believe). Then of course there is the blown glass, which may not be hot worked...


Offline Jindra8526

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 08:24:28 PM »
To support langhaugh. Sklo Union was Czechoslovakian (do not mix Czech and Czechoslovakia) concern founded in 1965 producing glass in following branches:

• flat and structural glass
• glass sealing material
• container glass and bottles
• domestic pressed glass
• glass machinery and equipment

Sklo (in Czech = glass) union never produced free-blown glass. Missunderstanding in use of Sklo Union term comes from this word SKLO. All what has to do with glass is in Czech sklo, but Sklo Union is name for "Sklo Union" concern.

Marcus fully covers the Sklo Union glass production of pressed domestic glass in his great book. I suppose that nobody from us collects "flat or structural glass" and only few bottles.


Please dear Lustrousstone do not be devil's advocate when you are not absolutely sure you are right.

The displayed piece I am not abble to attribute for the moment. It is not Chribska surely. Seems to me that it can come from late production of Svoboda or any other Czech glasswork, but must not be necessarily Czech. I will take a look. I am sure that this piece is SKLO = glass.

Best regards from Prague and sorry about a little lesson of Czech language.

Jindrich


Offline krsilber

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 11:34:26 PM »
Uh-oh.  I'm afraid it's very common to say "Czech" as short for "Czechoslovakian."  Is this incorrect for work carried out between WWII and 1993 as well?  I suppose it would be.  Could be worse...many Americans are wont to forget about all the politics, and call everything made in the general area "Bohemian," regardless of date!

Jindrich - hearty welcome to the forum!  And don't feel you have to apologize for teaching us a lesson! :)

Quote
Then of course there is the blown glass, which may not be hot worked...

I would have though all non-machine blown glass was considered hot worked.  What's the definition of "hot worked"?  I have no idea.

Kristi


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Offline langhaugh

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2008, 06:17:34 AM »
Hiya,

OK, here we go.........

Maybe, "Post-war Czech" ? or simply "Czech" ?

I don't think that there is any reason to get too complicated ;)

Kind wishes, Nigel

What I was looking for was a term to make it it clear what type of glass we're talking about. We agree that there is some confusion at present, in that quite a few people (as I've confessed) used Sklo Union as the umbrella term when talking about glass that is not Sklo Union. I'm not sure calling it Czechoslovakian glass takes us much further forward, as that term, logically, would include Sklo Union glass. I know it's a minor point, but an appropriate term would provide an alternative to the current misuse, and it would definitely help me when I'm looking for glass I want.

 
Then of course there is the blown glass, which may not be hot worked...I would have though all non-machine blown glass was considered hot worked.  What's the definition of "hot worked"?  I have no idea.

I used the term hot worked to describe a style of glass that I'm partial to. I used it in the sense defined by Ricke in 'Czech[sic] Glass, 1945-1980: Design in Age of Adversity.' quote, "Hot-working techniques.... Decorative techniques performed on hot glass at the furnace." It seems to me (I'll stress I'm not a glass blower so I am being tentative) that that's a feature of some glass from Skrdlovice, Zelezny Brod, and Mstisov, for example, although I know it's not an exclusive feature. Mark Hill also uses the term "hot-worked," p. 50, for example, when describing the 'Atlas' vase, a key examplar of this style imho.

David
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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2008, 08:32:25 AM »
Quote
I would have though all non-machine blown glass was considered hot worked.

I didn't say I was talking about non-machine blown glass, I was actually being very broad because there's an awful lot of Czechoslovakian blown table/glassware out there

Offline Frank

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2008, 09:39:14 AM »
Personally I think hot worked as a sub-classification in glass-making is an oxymoron. Cold worked glass is a very clear term that relates to work done on the piece after it has cooled down. Trying to subset glass with a term like hot worked makes little sense and as seen above does sow confusion. Any process of forming glass has to be hot worked.

Surely there are enough basic process terms available already: Pressed, rolled, cast, spun, blown (with prefixes; machine-, free- (air-), mould- (mold-)), moulded (molded), lampworked (flameworked), and a few others for industrial processes. These can be supplemented with techniques used as a secondary stage, primarily to decorate while still hot. But all are hot worked.
Frank A.
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Offline Jindra8526

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2008, 10:06:02 AM »
The terminology is not as easy as it looks.

Now you probably understand the difference between Czechoslovakia and Czech (and Slovak).

Bohemia (Bohemian) is another term. Czech republic (in history free Czech Kingdom and later Czech Kingdom as a part of Austrian monarchy) is composed from three parts: Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia. Bigger part of Silesia was lost in 18th century for Prussia.
In Bohemia live Czechs, in Moravia Moravians and in Silesia Silesians.

So the term Bohemia is designation for only western part of Czech republic, eastern is Moravia and north-east is a just bit of Silesia.

Now another complication:

Why Bohemian and not simply Czech? For thousand years, up to the end of WWII in Bohemia lives side by side Czechs and Germans making together the Bohemian state nation. Bohemian piece therefore mean that the origin of piece is in Bohemia, but it does not mean it was made by Czechs, it could also be fabricated by Czech-Germans. Truly most of glassworks was in German hands before WWII. Post war Czechoslovakia used "Bohemia glass" as a trade mark as marketing tricks. Most of Czech-Germans had to leave this counry in 1945 and 1946 (about 3 milions people) and whole glass industry was nationalised and given into Czech hands.

I would use term "Bohemian glass" for pieces made in this country before 1918 - Kralik, Loetz, Pallme-König.. etc. Than came period of "Czechoslovakian glass" and last few years we had "Czech glass".
Now we have nothing.  Czech glass industry is dead....

Jindrich

Offline paradisetrader

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Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2008, 03:54:50 PM »
I have found David's definition of "hot worked" most useful when talking about the type of glass produced by Skrdlovice and Chribska, especially when it's been unclear which of those factories produced the item.
I understand it to mean pieces which are significantly manipulated, usually by pulling and indenting the glass while hot in ways which may initially look almost random but on closer inspection have a basic pattern. Crucially each piece is unique in that it's not possible to replicate precisely the "pattern" by these hand methods.
There may be exceptions to this. It's an area I am still investigating on and off.

Back to the piece in question I fancy I have seen something similar on the Beranek website. I don't have the link to hand. I'm fairly sure Anne has it on her links pages.
Peter
   
Pete

 

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