Topic: french glass flame/blade 22.5" high - ID = Daum, France

[malcyp]

hi,i would like to identify this piece of glass please and also find out how much it is roughly worth for insurance purposes as it is very old.
it is 22.5 inch high and it is engraved on the bottom.france is the only word i can make out and the first word begins with a d which i assume is the makers signature.
any help would be greatly aprreciated.

[malcyp]

here is the signature

[glassobsessed]

Daum looks to be the maker, sorry that is the limit of my so called knowledge.

[Ivo]

Daum France, made in the sixties design probably by Michel Daum. Value: much higher in France than anywhere else in the world - but we never give values on this board, those are for you to find out. Ebay is a good source.

[malcyp]

thats great,thanks

[tonyatl]

Daum France, made in the sixties design probably by Michel Daum. Value: much higher in France than anywhere else in the world - but we never give values on this board, those are for you to find out. Ebay is a good source.

i agree that this glass is not old but i caution use of ebay to determine values of anything.....do not use ebay auctions as a basis for determining value - not even for fair market value which is not replacement value....some of the store prices could be useful but much depends upon the quality of the dealer.....some to the majority of sellers are hacks - they will sell whatever they can get in the heat of the moment....whereas quality professional dealers will sell based upon better market values and clientele.....if someone wants to use ebay stores as a starting point fine but i would recommend comparing with quality sites such as trocadero......for insurance purposes forget ebay....

ebay is often the bottom of the barrel scrape in many regards - that's where i go for bargains 

[Ivo]

This is where I disagree. The value of any commodity can only be approximated after an actual sale - all the rest is asking price and wishful thinking. It is not by coincidence that auctioneers and insurers use past auction results to estimate value, even if there is no guarantee that a second, identical item auctioned a few weeks later will make the same price. The fastest access to completed sales records is E-bay, and it also has a large number of items to compare against. Of course there are other sources: auction results from Christies, Sotheby's, Quittenbaum and others, or paid websites such as ArtPrice which give you (again) auction results. I would not take asking prices from dealers as a measure....

[tonyatl]

This is where I disagree. The value of any commodity can only be approximated after an actual sale - all the rest is asking price and wishful thinking. It is not by coincidence that auctioneers and insurers use past auction results to estimate value, even if there is no guarantee that a second, identical item auctioned a few weeks later will make the same price. The fastest access to completed sales records is E-bay, and it also has a large number of items to compare against. Of course there are other sources: auction results from Christies, Sotheby's, Quittenbaum and others, or paid websites such as ArtPrice which give you (again) auction results. I would not take asking prices from dealers as a measure....

you have a fatal misunderstanding of fair market value and replacement value and how they relate to the insurance process. appraisals - required for insurance - will typically give one of two values - fair market value or replacement value (and i don't think this is restricted to nationality). fair market value typically corresponds - without going into the details - to prices expected at auction. replacement value corresponds to insurance values. the question was for insurance purposes and thus should reflect retail prices with adjustment given to mitigating circumstances such as extreme rarity or value. All of the foregoing would be modified depending upon the item being considered which i will address below.

ebay auction results are completely worthless for fmv because ebay is not a professional auction nor is it truly an auction. it is largely a grabass affair similar to a cracker jack box - you never know what you are going to get - particularly for low volume items. it may have some use for common heavily traded goods. i would agree that if you want fmv of rare or expensive items that a major international auction house is the way to go. i would not go to joe's antique auction in cornfield, arkansas to find out what a ming imperial vase is worth just because he happened to sell a couple a few years ago. and i certainly wouldn't derive insurance values from such a source. quality and suitability of marketplace is critical in determining insurance replacement values.

the principle applies to replacement or insurance value which is precisely what the question was about. professional retail antique dealers who are knoweldgeable and have a steady clientele and supply for the item are the correct place to find replacement value. you do not want to set replacement value at the bottom of the barrel or lower because in the moment of need it most likely will be insufficient to cover the expenses of replacement.

asking prices may need to be modified to some degree but again the question is not about making a sale but about determining a conservative price for insurance purposes. thus including some additional margin for contingency is the prudent course to follow. the derivation of insurance values will blend actual sales with expert opinion about hypothetical values.

as a caveat to all of the foregoing we have to keep in mind marketplace suitability. some items are more appropriately replaced at a major auction house while others would be replaced at an antique dealer. so judgment must be applied in selecting the appropriate venue for determining insurance values.

i love the amateur dealers because they can have some great deals but i would never turn to them for insurance values and neither would a professional appraiser.

[Ivo]

it seems you have fallen into the Antiques Roadshow value trap.  If you sell, you'll get 60, the replacement value is 100, the value for insurance purposes 140...   

For anyone who wants a fair idea of what it will bring, check E-bay, it will give you a rough ballpark figure which you can interpret yourself and is based on an actual sales figure.

If you want to know what you'd have to pay to replace it, by all means check an expensive dealer with fancy prices. And if an insurance company foots the bill, add another 40% - after all, it was covered in the rates and you can afford to buy at a premium at an expensive auction house. 

Make sure to always be aware of appraiser's motifs.

[aa]

I am not sure when Daum started producing these, but I do know that it was still being offered in their catalogue in the late seventies, when my family were running one of the major Daum stockists in the UK. They weren't a great seller because they were priced at the top of the range and certainly stockists in the UK, didn't think they had sufficient oomph to sell for the expected retail price, which from memory was about £450 in 1978. I think we did buy one in 1979 and it sold.

I believe the flame was intended to be reminiscent of the everlasting flame under the Arc de Triomphe in Paris. Possibly the local market had more affinity with the subject matter.

I have no idea what the present day value is and it could well be less than the 1970's value, but the replacement value might well be higher. They were very well made, and their nature was such that no two would be quite the same, but their production was only limited to the quantity of orders received, so it may be that hundreds were produced and this might have a bearing on the value.

They were, however, vulnerable - the joint between the flame and the base would not survive a fall, so it could be that over time they may have become rarer. :rn: