Author Topic: EstlinClichy's trip tp Venice  (Read 3961 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EstlinClichy

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 32
EstlinClichy's trip tp Venice
« on: October 18, 2005, 03:17:43 PM »
Have no idea how I posted as a guest, but it's me EstlinClichy and this is about my recent trip to Venice. So, the Guest post and this one are the same, both by me EstlinClichy of the good old U.S.A.

Have just returned from a fantastic three weeks in Italy and Paris, France. Of course, as I noted in previous posts before I left, Venice was on the travel agenda for a six day stay.

As an aside, during one of our Venice days, we took a day trip via train (two hours) to Bologna, which was well worth it. Bologna is an undiscovered gem. Everyone was thrilled that some "sono Americanos" were visiting. If you've got the chance and the time, definitely take a look at Bologna. The covered archways are everywhere. The taller of the two Old-town towers is a 598-steps, 3-Euro, spiral staircase walk to a breathtaking view of the city and the Italian countryside. The food is phenomenal. Highly recommend the spinach tortoloni with ricotta and prosciutto at Il Ristoro delle Fate at 24/f Via Zamboni across from the University of Bologna. Also visit the food shop Specialita in Vetrina at Shopping Center 8c, which is at 8c via Ugo Bassi. Everything is within walking distance of the train station and the amazing Bologna Duomo and main campo.

For food in Venice, find and make reservations (or arrive at 6:30 p.m. when it opens - they give you until 8:00 to eat if you just pop in early enough) at Trattoria Ca D'Oro alla Vedova, which is in an alleyway off the Strada Nova. The restaurant's alleyway is directly opposite the alleyway for the Ca D'Oro vaporetto (boat bus) stop. The food is flawless and the atmosphere is like a fantastic party. Most of the tables are oversize, so you'll usually share a table with others. Great fun.

Venice is an amazing city and it was my second visit there. Of course, this is a paperweight chat board, so I'll note that last year (2004) I bought two medium size 3Fiori weights for about 46-euros each. One of the weights was bought at a shop on Murano and the other at a shop near the Rialto in Venice.

This time around, my goal was to score some superior large weights, and was I ever lucky. For starters, there are quality Murano paperweights everywhere in Venice. Many are signed 3Fiori and they are the real deal. There are also less exciting Muranos and too many Chinese pieces of junk. I was very surprised to find some shops on Murano selling Chinese garbage. The real Venetians sneer at these with the expression "No Taiwan." One woman in a tourist trap of a store on the main shopping street on Murano sold mostly Chinese glass items - with a few scattered Murano things thrown in. I felt like rocking her boat - you know us Americans - so I asked her who made a certain oversize weight she had. You've all seen the type - bright dark blue glass flower with a bug hovering over it. She said, "Murano," and I said, "no, Cinese." Meaning Chinese. She insisted it was Murano and I said that it was worthless Chinese glass. She got upset and said, "Ciao." She said "ciao" a couple of times. We left the shop and I gave her a disapproving tsk tsk look and wagged my finger at her. She was not a happy camper.

The moral? When you go to Venice and Murano, don't be afraid to disagree with the shopkeeper and don't be fooled by Chinese junk.
The good news is that there are quality Murano paperweights everywhere in Venice and on Murano and most of them are the style and type we never EVER see in the States or, as I gather, in France and the U.K. The good stuff is there for your buying and browsing pleasure.

I entered one shop and saw a large, gorgeous pastel-colored millefiori weight for 50 euros. There was no way I wasn't going to buy it. Turned out the man who made the weight was the father of the woman who ran the store. And he was THERE. It was their family's shop. That's the Buccello Renza pastel weight in the two pictures, one of Buccello holding his weight and one of the weight alone. You'll also notice a couple of miniature Buccello Renza weights in the photo - from another shop - of the cluster of paperweights. I should have bought one of them, but I had the big one from Renza himself and had tapped-out my paperweight budget for the trip.

In another shop, there were two small tables filled with Murano weights. It was an antique shop. I saw a stunning large, faceted, truly beautiful millefiori and latticino paperweight. The price was 105 euros. I eagerly looked at it and the shopkeeper came down to 80 euros. It was the only one like it in the place. Turns out it was made by Luciano Nichetto and he and wife and son run the shop. Luciano proudly posed with his paperweight - the one I bought. If you look to Luciano's right in the bottom of the photo, you'll see one of the small tables crammed with glorious Murano weights.

My third treasure was a very large millefiori weight with silhouette canes. It was in a gift shop on the main Murano canal-side street and it was 90 euros. I bought it, very pleased by it's quality. All three of the weights I purchased rival the classic French for their beauty and quality.

Italy is a terrific place and I highly recommend that Murano collectors head for Venice. There are affordable hotel rooms everywhere - we paid 110 euros a night and that included a bathroom in the room and a continental breakfast. Off-season, the rates are even cheaper. Then head into as many shops as you can on Murano and even Venice itself. Murano paperweights are easily spotted and in many cases, very fairly priced.

Labeling the pictures is tough to do with the picture hosting, or I haven't figured it out, so I'm just going to explain here. Some of the photos are of glassmakers at furnaces on Murano. Some are of glass factories. There's an overview of Murano being approached on the vaporetto (boat bus). One photo is of a shop window of a store that sells Murano in St. Mark's Square in Venice itself. Another that looks like a store next to a canal is just that, a store next to a canal on Murano. The image of the cluster of Murano weights is from a Murano shop. Buccello Renza is holding his pastel millefiori that I bought and there's a close-up of that weight in a separate photo. Luciano Nichetto is holding his faceted latticino and millefiori weight and there's also a close-up of that one. Another image shows the millefiori (with silhouette canes) weight that I also bought. There's also an image of the Trattoria Ca D'Oro alla Vedova. There's one of the view from my hotel room window. And who can resist a shot of the Grand Canal, even on a cloudy day?


Offline EstlinClichy

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 32
the shilhouette weight
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2005, 03:49:16 PM »
I forgot to mention that the millefiori Murano with the silhouette canes is an oversize, 2 pound, two ounce 3 Fiori Vetreria paperweight.

Offline Max

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 3468
  • Gender: Female
EstlinClichy's trip tp Venice
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2005, 04:07:36 PM »
There are also less exciting Muranos and too many Chinese pieces of junk.

Although I understand you're a superior collector of paperweights, there are people that collect and appreciate Chinese weights. Perhaps you could be a little more understanding of their feelings.  :(
I am not a man

Offline EstlinClichy

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 32
chinese weights
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2005, 04:40:29 PM »
Your reply brings up an interesting conundrum about paperweight collecting. And, it's been an ongoing discussion for years.

The bottom line is that most Chinese weights are of poor quality and not worth collecting. Yes, I do understand how some people like them and usually that's due to budget constraints. But Chinese weights are not good items on which to spend money.

But, and this is very important, the money you spend on Chinese weights can be saved and amassed and then you can start buying pricier Murano, Perthshire, Strathearn, and contemporary weights. I saw 11,000 euro Baccarat weights in Paris. I can't afford these, but I know that by avoiding Chinese weights and bad Murano weights, I will have money to purchase quality weights from France, Italy, Scotland, England, and the U.S.A. Another consideration is that most Chinese weights have absolutely NO resale value and will not increase in worth, not even in 25 years or more. The only Chinese weights that have value are the painted weights, the sailing ship silhouette style weight, the 1930s cubish weights, and the clearly-defined French imitations from the 1930s. There are also some Chinese 1930s imitations of New England Glass Company weights that are interesting.

Now, on to your comment. Firstly, I did NOT state that all Chinese weights are junk. I clearly stated that the weights IN THE SHOP were Chinese junk, which they were, and that on Murano, legitimate Murano tradespeople hate Chinese weights and sneer at them.

Secondly, I do have some Chinese weights in my collection, but I concentrate on the weights that have delicate painted scenes under the dome, of which I have two beauties. I also have a fun, huge, heavy Chinese weight with lampwork glass Pandas in them. I also have a couple of the square cubish weights with "birds on branches." I also have a definite 1930s classic Chinese imitation of a French weight with an orange pansy on a latticino swirl base. But I will not ever spend my money on all those garrish millefiori weights from China or all those swimming fish weights.

My advice has always been to save your money, avoid Chinese weights, and buy good quality contemporary weights. Or, you can save your money, buy nothing contemporary - and go for the affordable antique French weights. And there are some good values out there if you are patient and enjoy scouring flea markets, boot sales, garage sales, antique shops, eBay, and other places.

I'm pleased you find pleasure in your Chinese collection, but add up the amount spent and think of the superior weights you could own from Perthshire or Murano or even from 1845 France.

Offline chuggy

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 826
  • Gender: Male
p/w and venice trip
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2005, 06:47:00 PM »
I can see that you found your Venetian trip extremely rewarding, however I must take issue with a number of your comments and whilst your own boat may be floated by quality Venetian weights beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder and to basically suggest that some folks save for the "better" pieces is to totally fail to appreciate the joy of building a more modest collection. These is some extremely fine quality glass coming out of China at the present time it is just a shame you appear so blinkered that you cannot appreciate it.
Incidently my own tastes are Venini and Seguso which I collect avidly but like to feel I can appreciate and enjoy a wide spectrum of beauty in glass whoever created it or whatever it's price.
There is no distance on earth as far away as yesterday.

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9401
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Gateway
EstlinClichy's trip tp Venice
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2005, 07:29:12 PM »
A really interesting tale and great pictures. Thanks for sharing.
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
Glass Zoo - Glass Study.COM
Commercial Czech

Offline EstlinClichy

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 32
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2005, 02:13:34 AM »
Chuggy - your colloquialisms make some of your commentary difficult to get a handle on. However, I've already stated my full commentary on Chinese weights and I shan't repeat it.

But, at the risk of slogging along a well-worn trail, the idea that there is "quality" glass coming from China - we're talking about paperweights here - is not a correct statement. Yes, you can cull through 50 new weights from China and find a beauty - good glass, few bubbles, clean lines, fine colors, but my advice stands - new collectors should save their money and go for Scottish weights (past or present), new American weights, some Canadian items (Robert Held, e.g.).

Contemporary Chinese weights will never have profitable resale value. The painted Chinese weights, the clearcut 1930s French imitations have value, but not that high a value, certainly nothing near the true French or good contemporary weights from quality individual makers.

Furthermore, Chinese factory glassmakers are corrupting the marketplace with their imitations and copies of such weightmakers as Tarsitano or Manson. This is disgraceful and true paperweight collectors should not reward piracy. The bottom line is that a Chinese copy of a Tarsitano has no future - it will never appreciate in value. The cheaper Chinese gift weights are colorful baubles, but hardly in a class with anything from Caithness or Perthshire or Trabucco or Kaziun or Stankard or Manson or Orient & Flume or Ysart or Lundberg or Ayotte or Whitefriars, etc.

The message is clear: It's better to buy one good $75 Perthshire paperweight on eBay than spend $75 on four cheesy Chinese weights at your local gift shop.

Offline Anne

  • GMB Tech Support Manager & "Board (never bored) Dame"
  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 12015
  • Gender: Female
  • I has a stick to poke the server with yes!
    • Glass trinket sets
    • Cumbria England
    • ALAVNA Vintage & Collectable Glass
EstlinClichy's trip tp Venice
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2005, 02:38:07 AM »
Like some of the others I disagree with your sweeping statement about Chinese weights and whether or not people should collect them. If you do not wish to do that is your prerogative, likewise it is ours to decide to do so if we wish to.

Please remember that everyone on this board has free will and their own opinions, and those may not agree with yours. I certainly do not appreciate anyone telling me what I should or should not do with my own money!

Offline EstlinClichy

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 32
thin skin
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2005, 03:57:50 AM »
Too many thin-skinned people. Tthe bottom line is this: buying Chinese weights is a waste of money. Any reputable paperweight dealer will tell you that. And it's not because they have good quality weights to sell, it's because limiting oneself to cheesy knock-offs from China (Taiwan) or garrish baubles is to ignore the greatness that is out there in the world of paperweights. There is no greatness in weights coming from China.

People who truly care about paperweights as an art form and a creative endeavor fully understand the difference.

Offline Bernard C

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 3201
  • Milton Keynes based British glass dealer
Re: thin skin
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2005, 06:44:09 AM »
EstlinClichy — Thanks for your pictures and text, all very interesting and useful.

Janet and I were on Murano last week — we could have met, or sat at adjacent tables munching our pasta.   On Friday morning as we were packing, we realised that we had forgotten to visit Venice!

I am working through 41 pictures, trying to decide whether any could be of interest, and will put anything worthwhile on the long-running topic I started on the Murano forum, Visiting Murano.

Thanks again,

Bernard C.  8)
Happy New Year to All Glass Makers, Historians, Dealers, and Collectors

Text and Images Copyright 200415 Bernard Cavalot


This Website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand