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Author Topic: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?  (Read 2867 times)

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Offline flying free

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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 08:52:06 PM »
39086 dates to 1885 in the UK according to the list however that number is not listed on the Great Glass site, so I don't know who it might be registered to (hopefully someone else will have another list with the number in it perhaps)
Oddly I would have gone for Webb or Loetz on that vase because for some reason the gilded collar reminds me of something - It might well be a Harrach something it reminds me of though.  I'll have a search but I'm sure I've seen it on another piece.
I'd forgotten about this vase.
The feet on yours though do remind me of Harrach pieces - they like those feet as far as I recall :)
Lovely vase Alisa - really slightly envious of both pieces here  :)
m


Offline flying free

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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 09:34:06 PM »
adding to my post above - how is that pink one made? is it mould blown to get that pattern?  is it completely pink or pink over cream/white?
That large pontil mark is unusual for Harrach isn't it? 
My instinct is not saying Webb at the moment though and I think the signature might read G S F :-X

Here's another version - there seems to be a few around
http://www.humlernolan.com/Auctions/December-2011/Art-Glass/0742
and another shape here
http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antique-Glass-/Antique-Glass-Vases/Antique-Fish-Scale-Cameo--Art-Glass-Vase

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1094243

and there are two on ebay America
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-ANTIQUE-WEBB-FISH-SCALE-CAMEO-ART-GLASS-BUTTERFLY-GOLD-ENAMEL-MELON-VASE-/390656691565
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEAUTIFUL-WEBB-CAMEO-FISH-SCALE-ENAMELED-ART-GLASS-DISH-/370260468673



This one says it is signed GSF and gives a good pic of the sig
http://fineart.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=614&lotIdNo=21008

They all seem to be for sale in the US

I don't suppose they could be an American maker could they?  I know nothing about American glass so I'm sorry if that is an obviously stupid question it's just there seems to be quite a few over your side.



m


Offline azelismia

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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2013, 12:06:35 AM »
they are definitely not american. the pattern is got by acid cut back. it's almost certainly a retailers signature. it might be an american reseller. the huge pontil is definitely a Webb thing over Harrach. Not saying harrach never had massive pontil scars but it's way more typical of Webb. The tall one I have is definitely Harrach and I have a strong feeling the rosebowl is as well. I don't think they're all necessarily from the same makers. I think it's commissioned stuff.

the fish scale on the two color ones vs the crystal is definitely different. the retailer found for my rosebowl (per earlier in the conversation) has also been connected with the multi color pieces though.

I wouldn't rule out Harrach for the dual color pieces either though.


Offline azelismia

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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2013, 12:08:16 AM »
I'll look around a bit in my harrach museum pics and whatnot the two vase shapes look very familiar to me.




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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2013, 09:23:43 AM »
Alisa, as you mention, I agree your new clear fishscale has different decor from the pink ones and the lobed white one I linked to. 
I think your new clear fishscale is a match for the one in the depository, they have the same gilding on the rim as well and from what I can tell the pattern looks random on the depository one as yours is.

My observations on the pink and white ones and the white lobed one:
The decor on the pink and white ones (and the lobed white on white one) are shell shaped scales and fairly uniform in design.  If they are from the same maker as your clear one I think they are a different range.

I think it's a bit odd that they are all in the States and none found here in the UK (Stevens and Williams might have been another option with the large pontil mark? - however I can't see a pontil mark on the white one at all) 

I think the signature is GSF not GLF.

Re the white lobed one -  it isn't signed, I cannot see a large polished pontil mark, although the picture is bad it looks as though the pattern continues right over the base, the size seems the same height as the pink (measuring width is difficult as one might have measured straight on and another diagonal, but they quote different width sizes), and the pattern around the rim is not identical to the pink one shown on here but is similar.  But those might all be difference from when the mould was used, perhaps a different timescale/decorator?

There is a four lobed Harrach vase in the Truitt's Bohemian glass 1880-1940 page 57.  Different neck and rim but small foot underneath 4 fat lobes.

m


Offline Paul S.

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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2013, 06:35:08 PM »
quote...................'39086 dates to 1885 in the UK according to the list however that number is not listed on the Great Glass site, so I don't know who it might be registered to (hopefully someone else will have another list with the number in it perhaps)'.

don't know whether it's of interest still, but can say that this number was Resgistered to ....   Sidney Wittmann, Wittmann & Roth, London.  Glass & China Manufacturer.             Under the heading of 'Description' it reads...................  'Raised pattern on glass surface to imitate hammered metal'.          The registration was dated 30th November 1885. :)


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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2013, 07:08:54 PM »
 :) thank you so much  Paul

That's interesting that it's a London company.  So they were 'Glass and China Manufacturers' according to that registration and registered in London. I wonder were companies registered as manufacturers if they didn't actually manufacture something?

And how odd that so many are found in the States - or again perhaps that's a function of International buying because they were sold as Webb's maybe?
That doesn't mean they aren't English production though I guess, it just means that Wittman put their reg number on the bottom of them.  I wonder then, as has been said before, if Wittman and Roth designed them and had them made.... somewhere. As they have registered the design I presume it means they designed it?

What ties Alisa's and the pink ones together possibly is that Alisa's has that reg number on the bottom and OP commented earlier that another had been found with the same reg number on the bottom. 
'One of these vases turned up with an RD number on it that showed that it was registered in 1885 by Wittman & Roth, an importer of foreign glass and china.'
That assumes the 'other that had been found' is in the same decor as the OP's and isn't in fact a different decor that looked similar, i.e. another like Alisa's.  It also gives Wittman and Roth a different slant stating that they were importers rather than the Manufacturer that Paul has found they put along with this registration number.  However a comment here in the link below says that a lawsuit was filed in 1884 and their company was given as a China and Glass manufacturer
http://www.kovels.com/201110268943/Mystery-Marks/owl-mark.html
m

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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2013, 07:40:16 PM »
Adding to my post above
This link here is a news report from 1879 and shows that Wittman and Roth exhibited Iridescent and ornamental glass as part of the British Exhibit I think at the Sydney International Exhibition if I've understood correctly (read and scroll down using the left hand side of the page)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13445525
They are listed as Great Marlborough Street London - ummm, would glassmaking have gone on in Great Marlborough street?  or is it likely that is a retail outlet address?

In this report in the London Gazette, Wittman and Roth desribed themselves as 'Merchants' and state that their partnership is dissolved... that was in 1879 report stating they dissolved in December 1878 - but apparently they registered a glass item years later under the name Wittman and Roth?

And in this report in the London Gazette of 1896 it states that Wittman and Wittman have dissolved their partnership-
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26703/pages/444/page.pdf

Oh and one more thing

There is a jug here (see link) below that is reminiscent of Alisa's vase and the Harrach vase and it has a reg number on it of 39086.  The blurb about it says
'Registered Design number 39086 was allocated to 'Sidney Wittmann, of Wittmann & Roth' London, described as 'Glass & China Manufacturer', on 30th November 1885. The design was described as 'Raised pattern on glass surface to imitate hammered metal'. Sidney and F Pohl, a member of the Bohemian Pohl family, apparently patented a method of making glass in imitation of tortoise shell on 25th October 1880. That would appear to date this creamer quite well ca. 1885 - 1890, as the pitcher is signed with the acid mark capital W within an Owl standing on a crescent moon. Carved & Decorated European Art Glass / all by Ray & Lee Grover; British Glass 1800-1914 / by Charles R. Hajdamach; Victorian Decorative Glass British Designs, 1850-1914 / by Mervyn Gulliver; Decorative Victorian Glass / by Cyril Manley; Nineteen Century British Glass / by Hugh Wakefield'
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5715096

Obviously the only link between this/Alisa's and the pink ones is if an actual pink one the same decor as op's has been found with the same reg number on it.
On the other hand, whilst the pattern looks a little more random than the pink  vases, it does look remarkably similar in parts - possibly it was adapted and made less random but still the same maker?
The photos on this linked clear jug look as though it's very similar in the way it is constructed pattern wise.  There's a nice butterfly on it as well if you look through the photos :) (That Harrach butterfly?  or is it a Webb butterfly?  I get confused  ;D )
And likewise a nice gilded butterfly on this pink version which also states in the blurb that it has a 'registry mark' at the bottom.  Might that be 39086 I wonder?
http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antique-Glass-/Antique-Glass-Vases/Antique-Fish-Scale-Cameo--Art-Glass-Vase
However, I'm not sure which of the reference sources given above are the source for the comment
'Sidney and F Pohl, a member of the Bohemian Pohl family, apparently patented a method of making glass in imitation of tortoise shell on 25th October 1880. '  and who knows whether this 39086 is a presentation of the 'tortoise shell' .
This source at Great Glass shows Franz Pohl was at Harrach 1884-1900
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/manh-k.htm


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Re: Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2013, 08:43:52 PM »
mmm, I had my suspicions about the description for that listing for the jug as I've come across other incorrectly identified pieces from that particular collection
The description as I posted above was
There is a jug here (see link) below that is reminiscent of Alisa's vase and the Harrach vase and it has a reg number on it of 39086.  The blurb about it says
'Registered Design number 39086 was allocated to 'Sidney Wittmann, of Wittmann & Roth' London, described as 'Glass & China Manufacturer', on 30th November 1885. The design was described as 'Raised pattern on glass surface to imitate hammered metal'. Sidney and F Pohl, a member of the Bohemian Pohl family, apparently patented a method of making glass in imitation of tortoise shell on 25th October 1880. That would appear to date this creamer quite well ca. 1885 - 1890, as the pitcher is signed with the acid mark capital W within an Owl standing on a crescent moon. Carved & Decorated European Art Glass / all by Ray & Lee Grover; British Glass 1800-1914 / by Charles R. Hajdamach; Victorian Decorative Glass British Designs, 1850-1914 / by Mervyn Gulliver; Decorative Victorian Glass / by Cyril Manley; Nineteen Century British Glass / by Hugh Wakefield'

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5715096

In Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 page 307 there is a description of an S.A. Wittmann and F Pohl design being patented in England on 25th October 1880 -the description of the effect sounds absolutely NOTHING like the clear jug above
It is described thus
'Ornamenting glass in imitation of tortoiseshell.  Bulbs of dark and light brown glass are blown, and broken into fragments. A bulb of plain glass is then blown... ' etc.  it then goes onto describe use of silver chloride and yellow ochre and other materials for producing a yellow stain.  So they have used a description of a completely different process in that listing and I'm not sure for what purpose unless to try and link Wittman to F Pohl. 
So the clear jug above is a clear jug with a pattern on it and a registration number... but not the tortoiseshell design registered by Wittman and Pohl.

I think the jug is the same maker as Alisa's vase and the vase in the Harrach depository ( does it being in the Harrach depository definitely mean it was made by Harrach though is always my question, given the Richardson pieces that turned out not to be Richardson?) - however what needs to be firmly identified is whether a pink fishscale version has the same rd number on it as Alisa's vase and the jug above.
That might link them together as coming from the same maker, but doesn't necessarily mean they were by the same maker.  If Wittman designed  the design he could have had different makers make it couldn't he?
m

 



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