Author Topic: English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American  (Read 5971 times)

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Offline paradisetrader

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« on: September 29, 2004, 11:15:24 PM »
I wonder if anyone can help with this  Ice Blue Carnival Bowl in a crackle pattern ?
An american friend has confirmed that is the correct color name which I believe is relatively rare & says its def not american.
I just bought it beacuse I like it but would like to find out who made it if poss.

The rim is slightly irregular but purposely so - kind of knobbly.
The pattern stands proud on the exterior and the interior is smooth.
No mold lines apparent. There is a base rim within which a depression made to like a smoothed pontil !!!
Its 8 " dia x 2.5" high.
Thak you
Peter
Pete


Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2004, 07:15:57 PM »
I can tell you what is ISN'T a lot easier than what it IS.

As your friend said, it isn't old, Classic (American) Carnival Glass. Nor is it English Carnival Glass. The color is a sort of ice blue, though maybe light or pastel blue would be more correct. Is the piece "frosted" (acid etched finish)? I can't tell from your photo. In fact I can't actually see your photo at all now as the link is down.

The pattern appears to be moulded - and yes, it is a sort of tree of life or crackle style pattern. I have a red jardiniere with a similar random pattern on it that I found in Stockholm about five years ago. That piece is also iridized.

If the item has a pontil mark, then it isn't strictly speaking Carnival Glass. If, on the other hand, the base is ground flat (having been "stuck up" in manufacture) then it could be classed as Carnival.

None of this helps us with the maker though. I'm afraid I do not know the answer to this. It could be a European item, despite the fact that this pale blue color is not (yet) known to have been produced in Carnival by the European makers.

Is there any chance of seeing the photo again - and perhaps you giving a bit more info on the item re. the base (ground?) and the question of acid treatment?

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline paradisetrader

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2004, 08:30:11 PM »
Hi Glen
Firstly let me thank you for your time and attention. I noticed you posting elsewhere, lloked at your website and was hoping you might see this post and respond.

Colour - The only way to tell the base color on this piece is looking sideways through the base. As all other areas are coated with the irridescence (unlike a carival vase for example).
I have compared it to pics of several Ice Blue items on Ebay and it seems comparable.
The pic you saw didnt give a correct impression. I haven't found it at all easy to photograoh well !  
The base colour is very pale but definately an icy blue. The irridescence is also very subtle in real life. The photo tends to emphasise it.
frosted" (acid etched finish)? > NO
IT IS moulded sorry to confuse - I see so little glass with a base rim that it just looked as though it was pretending to be a ground & polished pontil between the stand rim - but it isn;t. Its just that the molding appears to have been done very well - carefully - I can see no moulded lines at all and I have looked very closely,
I am wondering if it could be Bohemian / Czech as Ive seen this sort of random crackle pattern on Palme Konig vases.
Hope this helps - Thanks again#Peter
Pete


Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2004, 08:41:38 PM »
Hi Peter - wow FAST :lol:  Many thanks for posting the pic again.

Czech seems very possible - maybe other readers could comment on this. It certainly doesn't appear to be from any of the regular / well known European Carnival manufacturers.

The color is a moot point. Strictly speaking - in Carnival terms - ice blue is light blue glass, iridized and frosted. It is the frosting (acid treatment) that gives rise to the "ice" part in the name "ice blue". If it's not frosty then - strictly speaking - it's not ice blue, but is instead a pastel /light blue.

However, there are shades of opinion (almost as many as shades of color :shock: ) regarding this. Some consider that the frost effect need not be present.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline paradisetrader

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Frosty ? Ice ?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2004, 09:33:38 PM »
Frosting - there IS a kind of frosted effect but it seems to come from a roughness in the pattern (which is raised - on the underside) ie its NOT smooth between the veins but not as even as I would imagine acid etching would be. But maybe Im wrong on that score. Maybe lack of experinece and only having touched satin glass with that kind of teatment.

In about an hour or so when my batteries have recharged I will take pics of the underside which may shed more light on the subject.

The fascination of this piece for me lies with its subtlety. So much carnival is brash and (sorry !) downright vulgar. I have very few pieces - only 6 or so - all quite simple in one way or another.

This moring at Bermonsey I saw and enormous frilly Marigold bowl on stand - almost exactly the same as one which appeared on Flog It and it was priced similarly to what that pice fetched at auction - ie ÂŁ40.

But I have seen some exquisite pieces on Ebay - some not so simple in fact quite complex ....Persian plates come to mind - if Ive got the name right - and they fetch well into the $100s.

So its quite a narrow part of the carnival feast Im concentrating on and which interests me and I am pleased that this one has sparked your interest enough to reply with such attention to detail and I thank you again.

Incidentally I note that very few pieces of carnival on Ebay UK are attributed as to maker.  Is there a book concentrating on British Carnival Glass ? European ?  Simpler , subtle pieces ?  :)
Pete

Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2004, 11:54:34 AM »
Hello again Peter. You raise a few interesting points that I’d like to comment on.

First, you note (with regard to Carnival) that you feel “so much is brash and (sorry !) downright vulgar.” Gasp  :oops:  Actually, I take no offence at your opinion at all  :lol: . I agree, some Carnival is not pretty. As with all forms and types of glass, some examples are good to look at and some are not.

You mentioned “simpler subtle pieces”. The pastels (ice colors like ice blue, ice green, pastel marigold, white etc.) would probably fit into that category. These were mainly produced by the US manufacturers, with Northwood being the King of these more delicate shades. The Swedish firm Eda Glasbruks also produced some delicately colored Carnival, but this is seldom seen.

With most Carnival, it is that vividness of color, combined with beauty of design and exquisiteness of shape, which usually captivates the collector. Not everyone likes it. That’s fine by me - less competition for me at Fairs and Auctions  :lol: .

You also mentioned the Persian pattern you saw on eBay. I think you might be referring to Fenton’s Persian Medallion design. It’s an intricate, lacy pattern, inspired by Persian motifs and executed in a style imitative of a complex embroidery design. It’s seen at its best on a flat plate, when the iridescence shimmers over its surface, highlighting the elaborate cameo design.

You also asked - “I note that very few pieces of carnival on Ebay UK are attributed as to maker. Is there a book concentrating on British Carnival Glass ? European ? Simpler , subtle pieces ?” The answer is yes, our book “A Century of Carnival Glass”. It doesn’t concentrate purely on British Carnival - it covers the output of the European and South American makers too (also the Indian ones). The main producer of English Carnival was Sowerby, but other companies (eg Canning Town Glass Company) are also known to have produced small amounts.

A fair amount of (“unknown maker”) marigold items that are found in the UK are often vaguely attributed as “English”. Not so. Many of them are in fact Czech or possibly German.

Finally, you touched on values. Carnival is a fickle creature! With well over a thousand patterns documented, and 60 or more acknowledged colors, in goodness-knows-how-many shapes - it’s important to get the right combination in order to achieve the real highs. “Rare but who cares” is an oft-heard cry  :roll: .

At the top end of the scale are the (take a deep breath) items like the two plates that sold on eBay a couple of weeks back. Each one took around $25,000. Yes, I did type that correctly. And the highest publicly recorded price for Carnival so far has been around $87,000 (the current estimate of the value of the item - an aqua opal punch set - is around $95,000).
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Offline paradisetrader

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More pics of the bowl
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2004, 01:59:26 PM »
Thanks Glen
for the valuable and interesting info. My understanding of the Carnival market is begining to dawn.

I did know that UK did import a lot of glass from Bohemia from as far back as the turn of the century untill WW2 so for canrival to be included makes sense.

I will look out for Northwood but would there be much of it in UK ? Did we import much / any from the States ? And having met some Swedish dealers yesterday I am toying with the idea of a trip there and will remember Eda.

You certainly know you subject and speak lovingly of it but with eyes open - great combo - and a pleaure to read. I want that book - South America ! India !! Amazing ! Hopefully it will have some pieces which we are likely to find as well as the top items we can only dream about ! Does it have guidelines as to desirability ? such as which base colours and patterns to look out for ? How does the Sowerby compare with others in terms of quality ? When did large scale production of Carnival cease ?

Yes the Persian you describe sounds like the one I saw. Not my usual cuppa tea but absolutely stunning. I seem to remember it going for about $480 - book price was $400 according to Terry in Iowa. The other prices you mention WOW ! There must be some discerning collectors with large wallets out there !

Terry mentions that stretch glass is now being included in the Carnival books. Apparently so long the poor relation of Carnival but I like its simplicity as well as the stretch effect. Is there any future for it in your opinion ? I've never seen any in UK !

Here are close-ups of the bowl showing the underside and rim


Pete

Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2004, 04:25:27 PM »
Hi Peter - thanks for the extra photos. I feel more inclined to say that it does look like ice blue - though it’s almost impossible to be 100% certain from a photo rather than “in the flesh”.

Thinking aloud here, but I’ve been wondering if the bowl could possibly be iridized Depression era glass from a US maker? It’s not my area of expertise, so maybe someone else can add an opinion.

Now to your other questions. First - is there much Northwood Carnival in the UK. Answer? YES. And Fenton, Dugan and Imperial. Very little Millersburg though. The UK imported a great deal from the USA from around 1910 onwards.

You asked if “A Century of Carnival Glass” has “guidelines as to desirability ? such as which base colours and patterns to look out for ?” Answer, yes, in so much as there are value ranges attached to the color photos. The text also expands greatly on the wider background to each manufacturer. There is information on all three of our books on our website.

Your other question - “How does the Sowerby compare with others in terms of quality?”. Well, it depends…….. Like the US makers, Sowerby produced some amazing Carnival that is sought after and very valuable. They also made a lot of every-day stuff that is easily found and rather cheap. The trick is to know what you are looking for.

You also asked “When did large scale production of Carnival cease ?” There are several answers to this one. In the USA it stopped round about 1930 (different years for different manufacturers: Northwood stopped circa 1918-19) but for the European, Indian, Australian and South American makers, it started…and stopped…at different times. And of course, Carnival is still being made today.

Finally, you asked if there is any future for Stretch Glass. I think the Stretch Glass Collectors would say there is a very good future for it. It is a different “animal” to Carnival and is collected avidly in its own right. There are also Carnival collectors who also collect Stretch and vice versa. There are also examples of glass that are cross-over pieces, in that they are Carnival Glass with Stretch iridescence. They are sought after by both Stretch collectors and carnival collectors. Oh to be so popular!
 :roll:
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Offline paradisetrader

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Not "Strictly Carnival"
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2004, 06:35:24 PM »
Not "Strictly Carnival"
Yes Ive been thinking maybe this piece is not strictly carnival too. Partly because of the molding quality and partly becuase of the irridescenec being so feint and then there's the pattern and the rim edge - all don't quite fit.
And I'm inclined to go along with your suggestion of "iridized Depression era glass ". But why USA ? and not Bohemia ?
Pete

Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2004, 06:46:54 PM »
Hi again - you asked "But why USA ? and not Bohemia ?"

It was just a thought.....  I know that crackle patterns were in use then, and the color made me think again too. I was really thinking out loud....musing :roll:

Here's a question that may help us to decide. Is the base of the bowl ground or is it a collar base ("snapped up")? I can't determine the answer from your pics so I need you to tell me.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

 

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