Author Topic: English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American  (Read 6048 times)

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Offline paradisetrader

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2004, 07:04:07 PM »
Hi Glen
I've been pondering this to try and make sure I get it right.
I have seen many polished bases and its def NOT that.
I only recently saw a ground base and also a vase with a rim on the base which was ground and its not that either.
This rim does stand proud so I guess its a collar / snapped up.
It has some roughness but not the type you get from grinding.
The roughness seems more like that which comes from being forced into a mold. Inside the rim small ripples as I have seen in molded glass before are apparent if you look very closely.
I hope this helps - so what does it mean ?
USA / Bohemian - don't worry I have a thing about Bohemian / Czech at the moment - I'll get over it. (But it would be nice if it were an Inwald as I have some others - but post war)
Peter
Pete


Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2004, 12:54:46 PM »
Hi Peter - thanks for the information.

From your description it does appear that you have a moulded collar based bowl.  My guess (and it is only a guess, because I don’t have a factory catalog or similar information to back it up with) is that your bowl is possibly American Depression era glass. It’s a lovely item - very pretty.

If the base had been ground I would have suspected a European maker - possibly Czech. But the bases on Inwald’s Carnival are exceptionally characteristic and not easy to miss. They have a mirror-shiny, polished grind. Very high quality. You couldn’t mistake it.

But (final answer  :lol: ) the jury is still out on this piece as I can’t give you an absolute and certain ID / maker for it. I’d love to hear other views.

Glen
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Offline Adam

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2004, 05:35:34 PM »
Hi everyone,

I only started to look at this seriously tonight.  It appears to me to be a perfectly straightforward pressing, probably with the body in one piece.  The rim is clearly fire-polished ("melted" in Sowerby-Davidson-ese, "glazed" in Joblingese) but the article didn't have to be stuck up on a punty to do this.  I can't see if the bottom rim is pronounced enough to be gripped by a spring punty, whiich would have done the trick without marking the article.  Much more likely is that the bowl was simply put on a turntable and blasted with an oxy-gas flame, either by hand or automatically.

The base colour could be a copper blue (one of the easiest and cheapest colours to make).  I pass on the iridescence, although I remember being sent samples in the distant past (of course!) which produced something a bit like this.

No clues as to maker.

Adam


Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2004, 06:57:05 PM »
If Adam reckons this is from a one piece mould, and with a fire polished rim, then I will do a flip-flop and delete my vote for American Depression glass :roll:

Back to Europe :shock:

Now....thinking aloud again....can anyone comment if I whisper "could this bowl be John Walsh Walsh, 1920s 1930s?" I'm not "au fait" enough with their production to answer my own question. Help?

Glen
Just releasedCarnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-booksthree volumes available
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Offline Frank

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2004, 09:08:12 PM »
Does not show in Walsh Walsh 1929 catalogue but it does have blue and amber iridescent ranges. From the text I imply amber was introduced first and enjoyed considerable success blue added c 1929. So they must have expanded the range in the 20's
Frank A.
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Offline Tony H

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2004, 06:36:49 AM »
Hi Peter & Glen
I have watched your postings with interest, nice piece, this is just a wild guess, but could it be a pattern called Soda Gold, I have seen photos of Soda Gold on Dave Doty's web site, and there is a likeness.

What do you think Glen?

Tony H


Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2004, 07:46:34 AM »
No, it's certainly not Soda Gold. I have an example of the pattern in the form of a smoke tumbler - and for anyone that has our recent "The Art of Carnival Glass" you can see an illustration of a splendid marigold, rolled rim Soda Gold bowl on p 118.

Soda Gold was made by Imperial (Bellaire, Ohio) in the late 1920s, early 1930s. Only marigold and smoke are known and they are pretty difficult to find. The shapes that Soda Gold are known in are very distinctive.

There are a number of similar patterns from American makers: for example, Tree of Life, Crackle and Soda Gold. They were popular among American makers in the slightly later years of Carnival production and into the Depression era (eg Jenkins). They all differ a little from each other. Dugan also used one that is even closer to the pattern on Peter's bowl - it's known as Tree of Life (or Dugan's Soda Gold or even Crackle)! It can be found on the exterior of Dugan patterns such as Four Flowers.

Bottom line - Peter's bowl is not Soda Gold.
Just releasedCarnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-booksthree volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline paradisetrader

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2004, 12:51:41 AM »
Hi Folks
Well this has been great fun and I've learned a lot - a bit like an educational whodunnit.

Thanks to new contributors as well as Glen who has shown so much patience with this newbie. Glen: So NOT Inwald Carnival .......but maybe bohemian depression irridised ?

Adam:  Thanks for your input
Quote"straightforward pressing, probably with the body in one piece">
I guess that would explain the lack of mold lines !

fire-polished rim> yes I go along with that.  I hadn't given the rim much attention till now. I only have one other item on display where this is done - a Beranek signed studio vase - and the knobblyness on the rim is just like that piece - I dont know if that has any significance or not.

Base Rim > is not that pronounced - as far as I can measure max 4mm

Copper Blue> I have been unable to find a piece on EBay worldwide in current or present listings - so cant't compare - but have looked very closely at this topic and the base compares exactly (as far as its possible to tell) to the base area of this Ice Blue item http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29570&item=3749344151&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW&tc=photo and this is just one of several Ice Blue Carnival pieces Ive compared it to.

Frank: So Walsh Walsh is a possibility ? If so I seem to be unconsciously collecting their pieces and must get the book ! But I doubt it will help with this piece so is there any way to investigate further ?

Tony H> I have located Dave Doty's web site http://www.ddoty.com/ and excellent it is. I've looked at Soda Gold pattern and the veins look more pronounced and the space between them larger than my piece BUT we have already established that it can't be American Carnival in any case beause of the fire polished rim.  Thanks for the suggestion.
 
I also looked up Ice Blue in Dity's color refrence and this is what he has to say about it "Ice blue is a very pale color and has pastel iridescence." which seems to fit my piece.

Glen:
Out of interest I looked at some Carnival crackle patterns (including the exterior of Dugan Four Flowers) and all seem more random than mine which is surpisingly regular.

Also the shapes made by the viens on mine are almost all elongated diamonds with only a very few squarish and triangular shapes.

The viens seem less pronounced than those on the American patterns and mine also has major and minor veins. The major ones go all the way from the base to the rim.

Finally the space inside the under rim is not patterned at all on mine whereas it is on the US Carnival crackle bowls I have seen (pics of).

Depression
I have now also looked at as many depression crackle pattern items as I can find and have found no pattern which compares well. Comments would be similar to those for Carnival crackle patterns except with even more divergence.

So Walsh Walsh or Irridised European then ?
Pete


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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2004, 05:46:55 PM »
I know nothing about American carnival glass but why, please, can it not have a fire-polished rim?

Sowerby's Sunglow for example, because of the way the Sunglow is applied cannot help but be fire-polished all over as well as on the rim.


Adam


Offline Glen

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English ? Ice Blue Carnival Bowl - not American
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2004, 06:44:17 PM »
Adam - please blame bad (English) phrasing on my behalf. It wasn't the fire polishing I was referring to - it was the one piece mould. I think most American Carnival was usually from two or three piece moulds.

There are some interesting examples of Australian Carnival that were from one piece moulds - but most Carnival I have examined which was apparently made from a one-piece mould has been European.

Fire polishing was used on most Carnival items. However, there are some unusual and rather rare cases where the absence of fire polishing is distinctive - and indeed forms part of the essential characteristics of the item. Specifically I am referring to celeste blue Carnival (mainly Fenton's). The edges (rim) of many (not all) examples of Fenton's celeste blue are sharp, often exhibiting little chips, and clearly not fire polished.

Thanks for correcting my bad phrasing  :lol: Mea culpa.
Just releasedCarnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-booksthree volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

 



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