Author Topic: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?  (Read 1189 times)

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Offline Wuff

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Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« on: December 14, 2010, 07:48:21 PM »
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310279178903
Seller insists it's Whitefriars, because a "paperweight expert" told her
"Whitefriars did make this type of weight in very small numbers and it could have been made after Caithness bought the company out in 1980. Its value would be around £50."

I still have my doubts ;-). My first bet would be on Webb-Corbett ... what do you say?
Wolf Seelentag, St.Gallen
Interested in any aspect of Scottish glass? Have a look at Scotland's Glass.


Offline keith

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 08:13:28 PM »
Looks like a Webb Corbett to me ;D


Offline ahremck

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 08:08:17 AM »
I have a Webb & Cobbett weight and the windows, etc. seem very Webb.  The idea of the seahorse is very Caithness - but it surely would be marked.  Interesting to look at the item description where it is listed as WEDGEWOOD !!!!!!.

Another creative descriptor - with a bit each way.

Ross
I bamle all snileplg eorrrs on the Cpomuter Kyes.  They confuse my fingers !!!


Offline mjr

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 12:17:27 PM »
not whitefriars. they did do clear engraved weights for 1972 olympics and royal wedding. they also did some flash overlays on millefiori weights in the late 70s. they did not do any like this. whilst caithness may have done etch deisgns they do not do them under the whitefriars brand post 1980. however the box is genuine. even auction houses have sold webb corbetts and others as whitefriars if they came in a whitefriars box!
Martin


Offline Wuff

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 06:57:38 PM »
Thank you for your comments!

Let me start with a statement: this is NOT Caithness, neither before nor after they took Whitefriars over. After all - I am managing the paperweight section of ScotlandsGlass, with the Caithness catalogue being the largest project: images of more than 4'000 Caithness paperweights are in my archive (not all online yet) - this weight is not one of them, and they never made anything only close to it.

Let's forget Wedgwood - just mentioned as "maker" in the header, but not in the description itself.

It is well known (though sad) that even prestigious auction houses have been fooled by items packed in the wrong boxes. I have also experienced several occasions when people working at auction houses were considered (by others or themselves) as paperweight experts, only because they worked at an auction house (though didn't have a clue about paperweights) - so one has to be careful with their "expertise".

Webb Corbett has been doing several flash overlays with engraved bases (Queen Victoria, spiders, dragonflies, and seahorses come to my mind) - often marked. I have seen quite a few identically looking, unmarked paperweights. Not being a Webb Corbett specialist, I don't know if they also sold their weights unmarked - or whether these unmarked weights are copies (to avoid the word fakes). Similar (at first sight) weights have come from Murano - but not with the base engraved; instead some sort of transfer/decal printing (not sure about the correct English word for images applied to the surface, not inside the weight) was used.

So this weight is definitely not "Caithness/Whitefriars" - and we seem to agree it's not "original Whitefriars" either. Instead it is either a genuine (though not signed) Webb Corbett - or just an imitation.

Further comments are welcome.
Wolf Seelentag, St.Gallen
Interested in any aspect of Scottish glass? Have a look at Scotland's Glass.

Offline keith

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2010, 07:42:35 PM »
Looks very much like my dragonfly weight,I've four weights,no marks only one with a sticker

Offline Derek

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 10:20:39 AM »
Hi all

I have an identical weight to the one listed on E-bay except that the seahorse faces the other way.

No one has mentioned the base, mine is deeply dished.  I have not seen a first quality Caithness
plain or overlay with anything other than a flat polished base marked with "Caithness", product code
and if a limited edition the edition no. Caithness/Whitefriars are slightly different in that ones with a
clear ground sometimes have a star pattern cut into the flat base and the ID is sometimes engraved
with a diamond point around the lower edge of the dome. So I agree with Wuff we can  dismiss this
weight being either Caithness or Caithness/Whitefriars.
 
Keith - you say one of your weights has a label but not what the label is - Webb-Corbett?? I have
only seen one weight with a Webb Corbett label and from memory they are large labels stuck onto
one of the side facets. If this is the norm, then it’s not surprising we don’t see many with labels!

Webb-Corbett were renowned for their lead crystal and my weight is definitely lead crystal with a
cobalt flash overlay. Mine appears to be engraved rather than etched and the engraving is fairly crude
as you can see from the closeup. So I think it was made to a price rather than for quality  which
tends to point away FROM it being Whitefriars as does the lack of the Whitefriars “button”.

There is an excellent  collectors guide to Whitefriars paperweights  produced by  Brian Slingsby who
was the technical manager (chemist) at Whitefriars from 1968 until they closed in 1980. Although
seeming to be very comprehensive, there is no mention in this booklet of any similar weights to the
one in question.

You see lots of these flash overlay weights at "antique" and collector fairs  and another common
design is a ships wheel whilst others just have a star cut base. My vote goes to Webb-Corbett.

Best regards

Derek

Offline tropdevin

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2010, 10:38:12 AM »
***

I agree with the Webb Corbett attribution.  They were taken over by Royal Doulton in 1969, but the name continued until 1986 I believe.  There is a tenuous Wedgwood link - in 1986 Wedgwood were acquired by Waterford Crystal, and in 2005 Royal Doulton were bought by the Waterford Wedgwood Group.

If you have a similar item that is not lead cyrstal, and it has a rather thin overlay - then I think Murano are the culprits.

Alan
Alan
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."  Abraham Lincoln.

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.
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Offline keith

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2010, 11:20:26 AM »
OOps,sorry Derek,here it is :pb: :24:

Offline Derek

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Re: Whitefriars .... hmmmm ?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2010, 11:36:35 AM »
Hi Keith

Thanks for picture of the label - doesn't look as if they were too careful as to where they stuck them!
The one you show is one is one of the star cut bases I referred too.

If you have a loupe  take a look at the base and see it you can discern whether your other ones are
etched or engraved. If its etched all the cutting will appear to be the same depth or possibly two
depths if they used a second mask. Mine shows many levels and smooth curves from the deepest
part of the cut to the surface - something that is not possible with etching.

Best regards

Derek

 

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