Author Topic: Orrefors Head sculpture?  (Read 4427 times)

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2011, 05:28:12 PM »
You reply is, shall we say, impolite. You have not told us that you have definitely had your piece ID'd by Orrefors, and you did cite a bull earlier: this one. I suspect this is what Daniel is referring to.

Can I also cite GMB policy http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6521.0.html


Offline 2*pleese*u

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2011, 06:00:18 PM »
You are right about the link to the bull, but that link is not mentioned in my description of the item. Your assessment that I am being impolite is not true, I am only defending myself and my research which can in fact be backed up via the E-mails I have received from Orrefors company representatives. I can only defend my research by using known facts which are at my disposal and which I have in fact received and can be proven. I am of course human and do make mistakes enter the example of the bull. But at least I have the ability to admit that I am fallible as a human being and this will and can happen to anyone when doing research. The point I am trying to make is that there may be exceptions and exceptions do occur.


Offline Cathy B

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2011, 09:01:02 PM »
Hi Michael,

I'm sorry, but I've had to edit your post to bring it into line with posting guidelines. We don't allow posts which are insulting, and unfortunately several of your comments were so I've had to delete those sections. Please note the following section of GMB Board Policy:

Quote
For your guidance, the following are not permitted on the Glass Message Board

   * Messages containing elements that are obscene, vulgar, blasphemous, racist or sexist
    * Messages that are defamatory or libelous. As this is not always immediately clear, the Moderator(s) may err on the side of caution.

Possible reasons for removal of messages by the Moderator(s) would include: those which are offensive to other people, for reasons other than the content of the argument being made (if any); messages which pertain to personal disputes; messages which are threatening, intimidatory, insulting, obscene, abusive, or obnoxious; attempts to deliberately deceive other members. As this is not always immediately clear, the Moderator(s) may err on the side of caution.


When a disagreement does arise, it's important to state facts without making personal comments directed at anyone else.

That said, the information you've raised is incredibly interesting. Are you able to cut and paste the emails from Orrefors into a post? New information of this sort is always exciting and we'd love to see what they have said. I do hope that you're not frightened off by these rules. We do welcome differences of opinion! Some of the most fascinating information emerges out of disagreements. Just keep it civil and avoid personal attacks, and you'll be fine.

You mention that you're having trouble with the photographs. If you use Irfanview to edit them, adjust the size so that the longest edge is 700 pixels and save, and your image file size should be small enough to attach, but still expand to be large enough to see the detail.



Offline 2*pleese*u

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2011, 03:39:26 PM »
Dear Moderator, (possibly Anne) I understand the rules I'm hoping that they apply to everyone who has entertained a reply to my posting, It does not appear to me that it does, as I am the only one being edited. I have sent you 2 E-mails, would you be so kind as to reply to them. Thanks Michael.


Offline KevinH

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2011, 01:37:44 AM »
Hello Michael,

On behalf of the moderators, I can confirm that your emails have been received and we are considering them.

However, because of the different activity times of the moderators, it may take us a while to gather our thoughts and respond to your emails. Hence this quick response in the thread.
KevinH


Offline 2*pleese*u

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2011, 04:54:28 AM »
Thank-You That sounds very fair. Michael


Offline Anne

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2011, 02:42:12 AM »
Hi Michael, I've been away from home on family business for almost a week so have only just read your emails but I understand others in the mod team have been considering the matter.

As not all the mods are around all the time, if you want to comment to a moderator on any post or topic, the best way to do so is to use the Report to Moderator button on it as that sends a message to all mods simultaneously. Emailing any one of us can result in seemingly inexplicable delays if we are absent for any reason.


Offline Cathy B

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2011, 04:15:31 AM »
In Anne's absence, I've been corresponding with Michael and with Kristina Sparr from Orrefors.

Kristina has confirmed that she provided the following information about the piece:

  • Anders Carlsson, mould maker and carpenter of Orrefors and assistant to the Orrefors designers, recalled this heart.
  • He couldn't remember the name of the young lady designer, who was not an ordinary Orrefors artist.
  • They made two hearts in the early 90’s. Since one broke, this is unique.
  • The young designer was the "owner" of this piece rather than Orrefors - she bought time in the hot shop to make the heart which was part of a big exhibition for a Swedish hospital specialising in heart surgery
  • Anders Carlsson couldn't recall the name of the hospital, but in an earlier email Kia Lindahl (also from Orrefors) mentioned Karolinska in Stockholm.

Maybe something is being lost in translation, but doesn't that mean the heart was been made by a young female designer, not an employee of Orrefors at any time, in the Orrefors hot shop because she'd hired time there?

It might be interesting to try to track down this young female designer, or perhaps the hospital.


Offline 2*pleese*u

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2011, 11:15:37 PM »
Dear Cathy,  Thank-you for taking the reins on this subject, I had, had enough controversy to last a lifetime so took a break from it, and was considering to let the subject die. when I e-mailed you the Replies from Orrefors, and asked you not to publish them that was for my own edification. I didn't feel I needed to prove anything to anyone anymore based on the responses I have received so far, which have been somewhat negative in nature (but I understand the cynicism). You suggested that I post them here to verify and give some weight to my argument. But..... I don't want to argue. I agree that this was not produced by Orrefors the company. all my posts up till now with respect to the signature itself are efforts of mine to bring to light that there can be exceptions and exceptions do occur. Even a novice collector can find truth. Fact is, I was told the block style script was not Orrefors script and did find some samples, Fact is, I was told Orrefors signatures were employed by the use of a diamond tip engraver. I found other examples that weren't. So I am a common sense guy, and I ask myself, why is there inconsistencies in what I am being told. I question like you and everyone else here we are trying to find answers to what we don't know. In summary, We know that the item was now made at the Orrefors Factory in the hot shop. We know that if this is true, it would have meant that the infrastructure of the factory was used, at least that is what my common sense side of me is telling me. If this is the case, Was the actual glass (raw product, before smelting) brought in, was talent from Orrefors used to complete this item in any manner or form (Ie Anders Carlsson's Talent for making molds?) Did the female designer carve her own mold and bring it in to use? How would Anders Carlson have first hand knowledge of this item? Did the designer bring it in for show and tell? Who was the gather?, who was the Finisher? all great questions. As for the signature, In retrospect, I believe, it may have been added by the designer herself but I have no definitive proof she did or someone from Orrefors or anyone for that matter. Common sense tells me that whomever put the signature there, had to have known that it was created there, whether it was applied using proper procedure or not.  The Issue in my mind is not the signature Micky Mouse could have put it there. The question you have to ask, Is... Was this made there? and it apparently was. Is this an Orrefors Product, No We have already determined that. Is it a fantastic modern Rendering....I sure think so, no matter who made it. Michael Branch.

On an added note, I did endeavor to research the hospital itself. I went to the web site and looked under public relations/ awards/contributions ect... any link I could think of. I was limited because of the language barrier as all information I could not get in English. I did not attempt to E-Mail the hospital because, I did not think I would be considered any kind of priority and because of the language barrier. There have been contributions by the Orrefors Co. from what limited information that I could see. It seemed to me, (and I could be wrong) that They do apparently have a gift shop which does sell Orrefors glass.


Offline 2*pleese*u

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Re: Orrefors Head sculpture?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2011, 05:57:35 AM »
Dear Cathy,  Thank-you for taking the reins on this subject, I had, had enough controversy to last a lifetime so took a break from it, and was considering to let the subject die. when I E-Mailed you the Replies from Orrefors, and asked you not to publish them, that was for my own edification. I didn't feel I needed to prove anything to anyone anymore based on the responses I have received so far, which have been somewhat negative in nature (but I understand the cynicism). You suggested that I post them here to verify and give some weight to my argument. But..... I don't want to argue. I agree that this was not produced by Orrefors the company. all my posts up till now with respect to the signature itself are efforts of mine to bring to light that there can be exceptions and exceptions do occur. Even a novice collector can find truth. Fact is, I was told the block style script was not Orrefors script and did find some samples (more than two I may add), Fact is, I was told Orrefors signatures were employed by the use of a diamond tip engraver only. I found other examples that weren't. (more than two I may add), So I am a common sense guy, and I ask myself, why is there inconsistencies in what I am being told. I question, you question, and everyone else here. It is human nature to do so. It is also human nature to mistrust. I am actually an Honest guy and always have been. We all are trying to find answers to what we don't know. In summary, We know that the item was now made at the Orrefors Factory in the hot shop. We know that if this is true, it would have meant that the infrastructure of the factory was used, at least that is what my common sense side of me is telling me. If this is the case, Was the actual glass (raw product, before smelting) brought in, was talent from Orrefors used to complete this item in any manner or form (Ie Anders Carlsson's Talent for making molds?) Did the female designer carve her own mold and bring it in to use? How would Anders Carlson have first hand knowledge of this item? Did the designer bring it in for show and tell? Who was the gather?, who was the Finisher? all great questions. As for the signature, In retrospect, I believe, it may have been added by the designer herself but I have no definitive proof she did or someone from Orrefors or anyone for that matter. Common sense tells me, I would entertain the hypothesis  that whomever put the signature there, had to have known that it was created at Orrefors, whether it was applied using proper procedure/personel or not, and... that the signature is an indication only, the origin of where the item was made. We.....have determined it is not an Orrefors Co. Item as Daniel has determined and researched and found on his own volition, this item is not listed, and of course, it wouldn't be because it was made by an outside designer.  The Issue in my mind, is not the signature, Micky Mouse could have put it there. The question now Is... Was this made there? and it apparently was. Is this an Orrefors Product, No We have already determined that, and who is the mysterious Designer? Is it a fantastic modern Rendering....I sure think so, no matter who made it at the Orrefors facility. Michael Branch.

On an added note, I did endeavor to research the hospital itself. I went to the web site and looked under public relations/ awards/contributions ect... any link I could think of. I was limited because of the language barrier as all information I could not get in English. I did not attempt to E-Mail the hospital because, I did not think I would be considered any kind of priority and because of the language barrier. There have been contributions by the Orrefors Co. from what limited information that I could see. It seemed to me, (and I could be wrong) that They do apparently have a gift shop which does sell Orrefors glass.


This is the amended version of the 1st reply above. Michael

 

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