Author Topic: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS  (Read 1350 times)

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Offline Frank

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2011, 01:35:27 AM »
Have requested images from seller for web site use. I had thought it a long time since the last Ysart fakes so not surprised that another lot may have been produced. He probably got them made in China this time round, I doubt the 80s 90s makers would touch this now.
Frank A.
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Offline KevinH

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2011, 01:52:18 AM »
Quote
Apart from the fake late 1980s PYs has anyone ever seen a fake "H" weight ?
Not to my knowledge.

And I have no information about any "third batch" of fake py weights, other than a couple of verbal comments having been made but with no actual evidence to back up the comments. Somebody last year said to me that there could be a recent batch of fake py weights but the example they suggested might be one of these was, in my opinion, one of the originals from the 80s.

Although it is wise to be aware of possibilities, I don't think it is wise to add fuel to rumours which have no hard evidence. Hearsay and assumptions can cause a lot of difficulties.
KevinH


Offline KevinH

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2011, 02:58:36 AM »
About the labels ...

I don't know of any significance to the round "PY" label. But perhaps we can deduce something, and also raise another question or two.

In Colin Mahoney's book, he sates, "A second rectangular label ... appeared when Harland production began" and for the small round label he said, "... the most common label ... on weights produced during the mid-1970s." The reference to "A second rectangular label" follows the section showing two versions of a rectangular CG label (for Caithness Glass).

So, in my understanding, Colin implies the rectangular PY label was the first in the 1970s period and the small round one came later in the mid-70s. This seems to suggest that the rectangular label was used 1971 to 1975, and the small round label from 1975 onwards [1975 being end of the first phase of the Harland works]. But we don't know for sure whether the small round label may have been used before 1975 and we also don't know if it replaced the rectangular one entirely. Similarly, we don't know if the small round label continued to be used during 1977 when Highland Paperweights Limited was set up and a large round "Highland Paper Weights" label was produced.

It is also interesting to note that in Anne Metcalfe's book "Paperweights of the 19th & 20th Centuries" [In the Miller's Collectors Guide series], there is an unfortunate lack of clarity in the Paul Ysart section. It was said that the small round PY label was "on Harland weights of 1970" [at the time it was believed by many that the Harland works started in 1970 rather than 1971]. It was then said that before 1970 a rectangular sticker was used. I have heard people interpret that as meaning the rectangular PY label (or sticker) was therefore used in the Caithness period – which as far as I know is untrue.
KevinH


Offline Frank

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2011, 01:51:22 PM »
We cannot ask Paul this time round but have to take his word and that of his apprentices that seconds never saw the light of day. So I cannot imagine for one second that the weight in this auction did not come from the Harland studio nor have an other connection with Paul apart from this label. I would guess that a reasonable idea of its origin can be gotten purely from the colours used. Forgetting the label where would people be thinking that this weight came from?
Frank A.
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Offline KevinH

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2011, 02:19:23 PM »
I agree generally with the idea that PY seconds did not make it into the market place. There does not seem to be many poor quality PY pieces around, whether made by Paul or an assistant. But I have seen examples of weights with features that I felt should have caused the item to have been rejected. One such weight was said to have been given by Paul to a workman in the 1930s in exchange for fixing something! Some other weights show occasional "wrong" features - such as only one cane in an alternating "1 & 2" garland where there should have been two. So "acceptable faults" were allowed it seems.

The crown weight discussed here has no real faults although the upper part of the crown looks somwhat like a "cushion" with its angular appearance. I have an example of a David R Hurry "flower on cushion" which shows the effect of flattening the filigrana (See images in next post.)

Perhaps the discussed crown weight was, indeed, made by David Hurry when he was assistant to Paul c1977 to 1979.
KevinH


Offline jamalpa36

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2011, 02:25:04 PM »
Hi Frank

Could you re-phrase your last comment as I do not know whether you think it is genuine or not!!!

I think it is Ok, for Harland production, if not the best quality. When you look at my crown weights from a certain angle the glass gives a distorted kink to the filigree elements which shows up in the photos of this weight.

Regards

Roy


Offline KevinH

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2011, 02:46:33 PM »
Ok ... David Hurry "Flower on Cushion" made at his Vida Glass company:

Top view (sorry about flash washing out the white flower!)
Side view

The side view shows a typical profile of this style of weight. It also shows a movement of the canes towards the upper left. Apart from the Crown weight having the filigrana rising much higher in the dome, the general similarity with the "look and feel" of the "Flower on Cushion" weight can be seen.
KevinH


Offline Frank

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 04:15:20 PM »
In my opinion there is a very high probability that this is being misrepresented as an Ysart weight. The sheer number of times that various fakes and forgeries related to Ysart weights and glassware makes other incidents as yet unknown to be very likely this may or may not be another case. I also realise that is not possible to be 100% certain and would defer to the consensus of collectors opinions. It is also unfortunate that the known fake paperweights trade for such high prices too as this only encourages the perpetrator (who is not a glassmaker) to continue his activities.

As to the possibility that David Hurry was the maker, this can be easily resolved by asking him.
Frank A.
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Offline tropdevin

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2011, 04:28:36 PM »
***

For what it's worth, I think it is a genuine Harland piece.  The quality of Harland pieces that I have seen are variable - just look at some of the Harland fish: they may have charm, they may be idiosyncratic, but some are not much better than I could do. And I do not believe that all the modest quality fish are fakes - just not necessarily by the hand of Paul himself. I cannot find the image of the 10 or so Harland crowns that came up at auction, I'm afraid, but I recall that they varied in quality.

Alan
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Offline Derek

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Re: Ysart or not Ysart, that is the question---misquote of WS
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2011, 04:54:50 PM »
Hi all

While researching for the Scotland 400 talk I phoned David Hurry at Vida and he said that
during his time at Harland - he and Brian Paul made "H" cane harlequin and Dahlia head PW's
which were sold at a gift shop owned by Hurrys father while Paul made the PY weights.

Best regards

Derek

 

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