Author Topic: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini  (Read 1561 times)

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Offline tropdevin

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 03:27:16 PM »
***

Hi Allan

I think that the earliest of the 'typical' flowers / birds / landscape type were made in the 1930s, but I believe that the black and white Clipper ship design is probably earlier - maybe late 1800s. For anyone not familiar with these, there is an image of one of these Clipper weights in the article on my website.

Alan
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Offline johnphilip

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 04:26:05 PM »
Funny thing is Anne and Hubby who used to be Sweetbrier Gallery  bought several very expensive 19th century paperweights and Ysart weights and ink bottles from Ray A and my goodself to sell on but bought all the Chinese whites i had for their own collection because Anne loved them , they were the first people i know who collected Chinese whites ,so that must say something . jp


Offline tropdevin

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 05:09:57 PM »
***

The collector of the Chinese Whites was actually Peter Metcalfe: Anne (oddly) did not really collect paperweights.  She had some nice Moorcroft, and five or six years ago was collecting ceramic tiles.

Peter Metcalfe let me photograph his collection of Chinese Whites shortly after they stopped running Sweetbriar: there were nearly 100, including a few ashtrays. I think he still has them.

My feeling is that, although produced in numbers, they are a genuine Chinese art form, rather than a commissioned copy of work by someone else - and at some point the Chinese collectors will realise that....

Alan
Alan
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."  Abraham Lincoln.

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.
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Offline johnphilip

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 05:21:23 PM »
Yes Alan i am sure you are right , forgive me i am having mammary problems - no sorry memory problems also the first drink for several months , i think they are so under valued , by the way thanks for the info on my Bohemian weight i had a feeling there was something a little different about it . cheers jp :hiclp:


Offline stew2u2

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 09:50:10 PM »
wow thanks for all the info
gratefully received
stew
there is always someone worse off .

Offline paperweights

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 11:36:29 PM »
My two cents again... I believe the clipper ship was probably copied from a Kane Millville clipper ship.  I'm having trouble believing it is older than the 1930s.
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Offline SophieB

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 09:32:45 AM »
Hi Allan,

I have heard of this Millville paperweight but never seen one. I understand that it was a footed weight with a ship upright. Can you tell me whether the boat was done in frit or in lampwork?

Sophie

Offline tropdevin

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2011, 08:29:30 AM »
***

Hi Allan. I don't agree with you on this one. The Chinese tended to make fairly literal - if technically flawed - copies, and the two ships shown on these weights are not very similar. Both are full rigged three mast ships (on the images I have seen - but I do not have one I can post here), but there are big differences in design (as well as Kane using frit, whereas the Chinese painted in oxides on a white plaque):

* The Chinese weights show a vessel drawn from off the port bow, whereas the Kane weights are from the beam (ie sideways on);
* The Chinese weights have two foresails, and then 4 / 4 / 3 main sails, whereas the Kane weights have two foresails, 3 /2 /2 main sails, and main and mizen staysails. Also, there appears to be a 'fore-and-aft' sail on the 3rd mast of the Kane ships ( a 'jigger spanker', I believe !) as well as square sails.
* The Kane ships have pennants on the top of two masts.

I do not think the Chinese copied the Kane ship.  My guess is that they copied a drawing, photograph or painting of a clipper.

Alan
Alan
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."  Abraham Lincoln.

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.
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Offline paperweights

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2011, 11:47:28 PM »
Alan, I'm honored to have you disagree.  

My experience with Chinese weights is that nothing was copied accurately.  They took license in all of their designs, although some were better copies than others.  It is my belief that the Chinese had either pictures or actual samples when they made the 1930s weights.  Included were the Millville rose and, I believe, a Kane clipper ship.  I also believe they had at least one "Motto" weight on a white enamel plaque.  They probably never figured out the frit technique, but understood how to paint on enamel.  

Several different designs of the Millville weights were made.  In Jim Doherty's 2008 PCA annual article on the Kane weights he shows several examples of three masted schooners including one (Figure 1) that bears an amazing resemblance to the weight pictured below:


http://paperweights.com/pw2041sm.jpg

In the same article are two pictures of "Rocked in the Cradle of the Deep" white milk glass weights -- whether Kane made these or not, the similarity of the design to the Chinese enamel weights is striking.  These weights feature a three masted sloop from the starboard side while the Chinese whites are always shown from the port side.  (no pun intended).   
From:  Allan Port
                                                             
Check out my web page for Glass paperweights, Paperweight Books, and Paperweight Information
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Offline tropdevin

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Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2011, 06:04:02 AM »
***

Hi Allan

Thanks for the information.  I have found the PCA 2008 article you refer to - very useful and thought provoking.  I see the similarity between the frit ship of Fig. 1 in the article, and the Chinese designs, but I still think that is because one is dealing with very similar vessels.  I note that the weight in Figure 1 is the only one of its kind known, and that the attribution to Michael Kane is tenuous, at best - but let us assume it is a Kane piece. So is it the master copy from which the Chinese worked?  I doubt it: the sail pattern is not the same as the Chinese weights: it is 5 / 5 / 4, with 3 jibs, and there are two pennant flags on the masts.

The 'Rocked in the Cradle of the Deep' weights show the vessel I analysed earlier in this thread (as not the origin of the Chinese weights).

Regarding Michael Kane, I understand he left Ireland in the late 19th C to work at Millville, and I have seen various of his ship weights described as 'circa 1900'. So could he have made frit ships in the late 19th C? If so, then we could both be correct about the origins, and the dates!

Alan
Alan
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."  Abraham Lincoln.

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.
 http://www.pwts.co.uk

 

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