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Author Topic: If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?  (Read 3562 times)

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Offline Pinkspoons

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If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?
« on: February 21, 2006, 08:42:51 AM »
...then what is it? Any ideas anyone?

I'm just separating this optic-rib vase from my Whitefriars thread. It was purchased with a small lot of now identified WF pieces, and it's the same shape/size as a genuine WF optic-rib, but the colour's wrong. There's a fair amount of wear to the base, so it's not a new 'un.

So your guess is as good as mine...!





Offline Pinkspoons

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If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 11:34:46 AM »
Is it at all possible that it was a one-off piece for the factory shop / special order? I don't have any experience with optic-ribs, so I can't tell you if the base is right or not, so I'm just grabbing at straws here.  :lol:

Scandi is a possibility, I guess - Strombergshyttan did some pieces in a similar style, so I've read.


Offline roget123

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If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2006, 05:11:10 PM »
Hi,
Please tell us what size it is and also why do you think the colour is wrong for WF glass from the pre-war period?

When you run your fingers up and down the vase, do you feel the ribs on the inside or the outside.

Finally, the term optic-ribs when applied to WF, is as far as I can determine from the 'bible' on WF, "Whitefriars Glass" by the Museum of London team, only applies to those Art Noveau glass of Harry Powels from around 1890-1910 give or take smudging of time. What you have is a ribbed vase.

regards Geoff
Geoff Timberlake
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Offline Pinkspoons

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If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2006, 05:53:43 PM »
Hi.

The vase is 6" tall. There are slight undulations on the outside of the vase where the ribbing is, but it is heaviest by far on the interior.

And I just assumed that dark shades of blue was used by WF from the 1960's onwards, as all of the blue pre-war WF (that I've seen) seems to be in the light Sapphire - but I'm far from an expert in this area of glass, so I'm more than willing to be wrong on this one! haha

Thanks for the tip on the optic rib/ribbed vase terminology, though. I'd just seen these vases refered to in a few places as 'optic rib', is all.


Offline vidrioguapo

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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2006, 07:57:43 PM »
These are definitely known as Horizontal optic ribbed vases.  Whitefriars did do a darker blue called Sanctuary Blue from the 1920's - 1940's approx.  But this vase is not Sanctuary Blue. The ribbed method talked about above is a very different type of ribbing - I am not a technician - but
the reference made to page 291 of the MOL book  show vases where you can feel the vertical ribbing quite definitely on the outside of the glass

The horizontal optic ribbing on Nic's vase ( and I have one the same but 8" ) is smooth on the outside and it gently undulates on the inside.  They were made using a roll-mould technique, glass being shaped prior to blowing with the outer surface smoothed as the shape was formed. This style of glass was usuallky cased as well. I haven't got the answer to your vase Nic, or for mine for that matter - the colour is very much a late 60's Whitefriars colour. The shape is a W/.F shape, but it doesn't corralate with the catalogues.  There may be an answer, but I don;t know what it is at this stage.

Offline roget123

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If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2006, 04:12:23 PM »
Vidrioguapo,
Thank you for your comments, it made me re-read both the MOL book and Lesley Jackson's. Your statement that "These are definitely known as Horizontal optic ribbed vases" is only true if you read Jackson, the MOL team, using what one would persume offical Whitefriar jargon gleaned from the records they now hold, talk about "Heavy optic ribbed" so I guess either description would be acceptable - although my earlier one is flawed and please forget that  :oops: .

I am confused  :? Who made a reference to page 291 of the MOL book in this thread? That  shows some of the Wealdstone range made for Wuidart and if you claim that the ribbing on those vases can be felt on the outside then your reference does not seem to apply to Nic's vase and the one I have, where the ribbing can be felt on the inside as described in both books. If you need a reference to heavy optic ribbed vases in the MOL book, then try page 302,  plate 509, and 6 inch is one of the sizes quoted.

Colour is a problem though as the only blue quoted in the catalogue plate 509 is sapphire blue which is by WF standards usually a lot lighter than Nics vase. But of course note the date, 1940, it is surprising that WF were still making coloured glass during the war, and maybe they could obtain supplies to make Saphire Blue but not Sanctuary Blue.  Having looked at Jackson's book why do you say the colour of Nic's vase is not Sanctuary Blue? The examples shown in Jackson of Sanctuary Blue look to me very similar to the photos on this thread.  You must allow for inaccuracies in colour reproduction in both the book and photos displayed on any website.
Another contender could be royal Blue - but we are back to the Wealdstone range again  :roll:
looking forward to more enlightenment.
regard Geoff
Geoff Timberlake
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vidfletch

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If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2006, 05:46:58 PM »
Pattern 9094 was in the catalogues from 1938 to 1964.

It was only available in two blue shades. Not cased in clear crystal.

Sapphire Blue from 1938 to 1959.

Arctic Blue from 1960 to 1964.

These vases are heavily ribbed on the inside. Heaviest from the bottom and reduced as the vase flares out obviously.


The "optic ribbed" vases launched in 1962 are very smooth inside and out. The horizontal lines or "ribbing" is nowhere near as obvious as Pattern 9094. They were always cased in clear crystal in either Blue, Green, Ruby or Kingfisher Blue.

The base on this one does not look right at all I have to say. My guess is probably Swedish. Whitefriars were not the only company to do glass like this as I am sure most are well aware.

Vidfletch

Offline Pinkspoons

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If it's not Whitefriars.... Elis Bergh vase?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2006, 06:07:28 PM »
It was the base that was my main concern - the 9094's that I've seen have smaller inverted pontil marks (or at least they look smaller in the photographs). Does anyone happen to have a clear photograph of a 6" 9094 base...?  Y'know... just laying around!  :lol:  

With regards the colour... occasionally non-catalogued oddities do pop up, but I do agree that this blue is very Scandinavian - it sits very well next to one of my blue Holmegaard kuttrolf decanters. I can't say if it is at all similar to Sanctuary Blue, as it's not a colour I'm familiar with.

But it seems to tick all of the other boxes: Not cased, reduction of ribbing with flaring, etc... but as I said earlier, I'm willing to fly with a possible Scandi origin if the evidence indicates that direction, rather than argue that it is WF until I'm blue in the mouth.  :lol:

Offline vidrioguapo

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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2006, 06:12:36 PM »
Hi Geoff,  I think I have my fingers in too many pies at the moment ---
so forget the reference to page 291 in MOL book....it is me who is confused, so apologies.  It's a long story! And yes, Nics, vase should have the optic ribbing on the inside.

I don't believe it is Sanctuary Blue,; I know blue doesn't always photograph accurately, but I have a comparison pic which someone did for me a while ago, with all the blues including Sapphire, Sanctuary and Kingfisher, and the vase under discussion leans more towards Kingfisher than Sanctuary by a long shot.

In spite of all our combined knowledge, it seems we are no nearer giving this a provenance, and only time will tell. Nice vase, whatever. Perhaps it's time to move on! LOL

Offline Pinkspoons

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Re: Post subject
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2006, 08:16:36 PM »
Quote from: "vidrioguapo"
...I have a comparison pic which someone did for me a while ago, with all the blues including Sapphire, Sanctuary and Kingfisher...


Ooh, would it be possible for you to post it here, please?  :D

 

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