Author Topic: Monart Glass formula ??  (Read 6065 times)

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Offline nigel benson

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2011, 10:21:18 AM »

A very carefully worded and thought out set of observations Gary (complement  :)), which of course have merit as a possible explanation for the coding on the labels. I think we have presented each end of the spectrum.

Sadly, I doubt whether either will be provable. Still worth persuing though  :)

Nigel


Offline Frank

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2011, 10:34:09 AM »
I agree with you Gary. I had not realised that all were coded oddly, one or two is a coincidence the whole collection is plain wrong! Not to mention statistically impossible. There were quite a few blank labels floating around and if a collector decided to label up his collection there would be nothing to stop him. As the labelling post-war was done by Betty Reid it is probable that pre-war all labelling was done by one person too. It is not realistic to expect that the only departures from standard sequence ended up in one collection.

Note also Kevin's earlier remark about label condition on a flat base.

Final confirmation would be identifying a post-war piece in that collection with the colour codes. (see My Last Assumption)Perhaps a reason the colour codes were not used post-war was that Betty did not know them, as they had not been written down.

Frank A.
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Offline nigel benson

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2011, 11:37:51 AM »

I take all the points you make Frank, but find this one a tad problematic:

Quote
Perhaps a reason the colour codes were not used post-war was that Betty did not know them, as they had not been written down.

My observation would be that it would be difficult (although not impossible) for someone to remember all the colour codes, especially if used sporadically over a protracted period of time. More likely was the introduction of new enamels that did not tally with those used pre war IMHO; therefore the colour code would necessarily be dropped.

Nigel


Offline KevinH

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2011, 12:49:13 PM »
... 3 All of a sudden one vendor has on his Monart pieces with labels, this unusual sequence of coding. This is to much a coincidence that one collector would have only this type label and no “normal” Monart labels.
I thought there were some items with "normal" labels - such as one of the items in Lot 65, and one of the pieces in Lot 70 (I have not checked for others).

Quote
... 4 Paul Ysart Monart Paperweights with labels are fairly rare; this vendor had one on every paperweight. ...
I thought there were weights without a label (but perhaps some had only a remnant of a very worn one) - Lot78, Lot 80, and one item in Lot 81.
(Note that Lot 85 was a surface decorated weight with modern Murano canes so its lack of a label does not count in the context of Monart items.)

Although Monart labels are not very common on PY weights, there are plenty of examples scattered amongst various collections. I have four examples and most of the "IEA" weights I have seen do have a Monart label. So excluding the three "IEA" weights in the sale, I think there were 5 out of 8 that had a label. This could be the result of somebody able to afford to be more selective in their purchase of PY weights.

But please also see my next post.
KevinH


Offline KevinH

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2011, 01:01:36 PM »
I bought the "Fish in Basket" weight. It has a Monart Glass label. Under uv light, it does not fluoresce the same as all of my other Monart-period py weights! This could be an example of a label fallen off something else and incorrectly re-attached to the Fish weight. Or it might suggest that there are some Monart-period weights that were made with a glass mix that simply does not fluoresce the same as most most others. Or it might be, as Gary has said, that the label was added by somebody at much later date.

I am still pondering this, along with other features of the weight, and also another weight I have that has a feature that does not seem to match "normal theories". I do not want to make any further comment at this time as it could lead to innacurate assumptions.
KevinH


Offline Frank

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2011, 04:10:08 PM »
I take all the points you make Frank, but find this one a tad problematic:

My observation would be that it would be difficult (although not impossible) for someone to remember all the colour codes, especially if used sporadically over a protracted period of time. More likely was the introduction of new enamels that did not tally with those used pre war IMHO; therefore the colour code would necessarily be dropped.

Nigel

Weird no longer includes the subquote...

That is the conventional tale given and could be true apart from many colour schemes and that the original enamels were once again available.

But the memory thing I do buy and the coincidence that post-war Betty did the labelling - memory interruption - is a coincidence. And coincidences always raise the need to review things. Unfortunately no-one alive that can solve such matters,
Frank A.
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Offline millarart

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2011, 04:42:53 PM »
MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm too many thing not adding up here, label codes in wrong order, label colour codes wrong, formulas, paperweights not coming up as should or as you expect under uv, a fishy weight indeed??? catalogues seem to be the genuine thing , only difference between the matching two compared to others seen are the little black picture of the vase on the covers are diffferent , but they are the same as one of the two pictures of vases on the front of the Monart Ware catalogue so could these two Monart Glass catalogues been the first batch to have been made when the Monart Glass ones first came out ?????,  ok back to labels and codes i note that the four vases with the labels on them all have the same size code do we know if they match up to the vases  actual size codes on the ysart glass site for the actual size of each induvidual vase,(havent had time to jump back to ysart glass sites monart shape and size section to check) also the writing / ink looks pretty good and monartish lol, Gary you have a lot of pics of labels and their written codes, worth comparing letters and numbers from these against the way the numbers and letters on these four labels are written, i had a little compare of the way the number 5"s was written on the vase with the  colour code 55 on it to the picture Gary put up of the paisley shawl bowls label with the colour code 55 on it, and i have to say the the 5"s all look like they have been written by the same hand, they way they are finnished at the tops with a little flick all matches to me, so if you can compare the way the other numbers and letters on the four labels are written against numbers and letters the same but on labels you know are 100% correct then surely this will tell us if they have been written by another hand than the one that they should have been done by, we all have our own way of writing letters and numbers a bit like fingerprints i suppose, Sherlock time to get on this case


Offline Frank

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2011, 09:44:58 PM »
Numbers are easy to copy and it is likely Indian ink so easy to duplicate. With all the other questions I wonder if this collector was a customer of J who was always happy to provide goods to match what the customer requested...
Frank A.
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Offline millarart

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2011, 11:15:33 PM »
well next question i ask is if they went to all the trouble of copying handwriting to match Monarts and also put on the correct shape and size code why wouldnt they put the correct colour codes in and also write the codes in the proper order, just a thought


Offline Frank

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Re: Monart Glass formula ??
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2011, 11:42:43 PM »
If it was J and he was already working on the colour code book at the same time he would have matched colour codes it to that. He certainly had some genuine labels, showed them to me.
Frank A.
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