Author Topic: Monart discontinued shapes ?  (Read 3589 times)

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Offline Frank

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2012, 11:55:05 PM »
Of course Carolyn.

Re rule 3, until you get documentary proof a first hand account is the best you have to go on. It forms a basis to find information that supports it or disproves it. A lot of material got removed from the drafts for the book Ysart Glass because they were considered hearsay but ultimately there is the need to include what the person said about their work when there is no other source available. All books are out of date the moment they are published, the joy of research.

I had forgotten about the Tay glassworks. Some of the historical maps are inconsistent with each other too. Of course buildings could have changed purposes over time. There may have been other glassworks at some points in time too.

Informal is all we have, but there was never a mention of Paul going to school, which does not mean he did not.

Tomey archives would be interesting, but not to many people... good to know they exist. Moncrieff continued the brand and trademarks as well as the company for some time... but why?

It is great that you are going down this path, look forwards to learning more. Not much I can add as almost everything I have is published.
Frank A.
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Offline Gary

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2012, 10:42:18 AM »
Just to play devil's advocate ('cuz lord knows I have researched none of this) but could Paul have not worked part-time at the beginning of his apprenticeship (had an in with the boss you know) so that he could also have gone to school at the same time?

Carolyn
What must be taken into account that Paul was a child of 11 years old in 1915 and it was compulsory to attend school so that would leave him little time to work with his father (after school and possibly Saturday mornings).

This bit of information proves nothing. "In the Moncrieff Employees Ledger 1900 to 1970 shows that no person under the age of 14 were taken on to work". but it does indicate Moncrieff Glassworks adhered Factory Act of the time,  not  employ children of school age. I see no reason why other glassworks would not be the same. Factories in general are dangerous places to work in, more so a glassworks.

Where did Paul learn to read and write English and the use of imperial measurements (Spain and France used the metric system, where he lived 1904 to1915) if not at school in Scotland.

Frank I am in correspondence with AK Bell library about scanning Moncrieff's materail for Scotland's Glass.
Gary


Offline Frank

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2012, 01:26:23 PM »
cool. French used to have a weird 'imperial' system of their own no idea when the switched to metric but still use some non-metric untts here. Glass works often used inches elsewhere in Europe maybe in France too. Not an issue for blowers who would use gauges and calipers from masters or drawings.

As to the rest they remain unknown, best not to assume. Would be nice if a copy or record of his indenture was in the Moncrieff archive, is it large? I have some here which should join those papers, or museum, at some point. Wonder what happened to E&L and Cochran records. Edinburgh museum or libraries must have some material.
Frank A.
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Offline Gary

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2012, 11:10:26 AM »
Having read and studied Ian Turner’s article on Monart Lighting and studied the Monart Lighting catalogues that are in Perth museum that Ian Turner article refers to in The Journal of The Glass Association.
I am still of the opinion that Salvador was the main collaborator with Mrs Moncrieff in the design of the early Monart shapes
It worth quoting the two paragraphs in full from Ian’s article.

“but they do require a correction to a statement in YSART GLASS to the effect: the shapes that appear in the pattern books were designed by Mrs Moncrieff in collaboration with Salvador Ysart:
The evidence from both surviving manuscripts does not support that view because all the shapes, all the subsequent amendments are in Paul Ysart’s distinctive hand.  (italics by Ian Turner)
So, to put the record straight, whilst his father Salvador Ysart was undoubtedly the inspiration for Monart Glass and may well have worked with Mrs Moncrieff on all the early colourways, the shapes were primarily Paul Ysart’s responsibility.”

Ian bases his new theory that it was Paul and not Salvador who was the main designer of the Monart shapes purely on the fact that it is only Paul handwriting on the working Monart Lighting Catalogue.
I agree with Ian that Paul’s handwriting has annotated many of the drawings, but roughly a third of the drawings, in my opinion, are written in someone else’s handwriting.
Possibly Salvador's ? who else would have been allowed to write on the working catalogue
Below are the images of the two different handwriting script  taken from the catalogue.
I am no expert on calligraphy but I can see the difference in the hand writting.
Gary


Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2012, 04:16:43 PM »
 ???
I'm fairly sure that on a visit to the Broughty Ferry Castle Museum, not too long ago, I found some mention of a Tay Glassworks
(the museum is in a fortress right on the Tay)...
When I go again, I'll try to remember to take notes. I'll seee if there's anything in the MacMannus Galleries too, when I next manage a visit.  :)
Cheers, Sue (M)

“All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Gary

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2013, 05:59:52 PM »
I have manage to get in touch with Ian Turner thanks to GMB and PCC member Derek.
The first message is my request to Ian to clarify his view on the topic.
Hi Ian
My name is Gary Cantwell and live in Perth and have been collecting Ysart glass for seven years , though mainly Monart. The last 4 years or so I have been doing research on Monart, during that time I have had the pleasure of many visits to Perth museum to view the Monart reserve collection and study the archive material, which I believe you donated most of the material. The catalogues (lighting and shape) are the most important for Monart collectors.
If you have time could you read  this topic that I posted GMB and let me know your view on the subject, which would be greatly appreciated. I was not at the Ysart weekend 2005 held in Perth when you discussed who was the main Ysart involved in the design of Monart shapes. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,44876.0.html
Regards
Gary

This is Ian's reply in full.

Gary
You have been busy!
I have read the GMB messages, but don’t intend to contribute myself to this forum.  Monart is history so far as I am concerned, but I can’t escape it altogether because, for better or worse, I suppose I still know more about it than anyone else thanks to my hours of discussion with Paul at his home in Wick, and with his daughter Adele.
In any event, I don’t have a lot to add to the long article published in the Glass Journal Volume 7.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the the lighting catalogue, which was never published, is in Paul’s hand.  The line drawings and the annotations are his, and he recorded all the changes to shapes and fittings and the agreement of both John Moncrieff and his wife ‘Mrs John’.  That doesn’t mean, of course, that the ‘prototype’ shapes were all blown by Paul.  They probably weren’t.  It’s possible, especially early on, that Mrs John and Salvador chose both the shapes and colourways, but even in the early years it was Paul who was given the task of recording these shapes in a pattern book.  Exactly the same process applied to the Monart Ware shapes.  All the drawings in the manuscript shape pattern books – also lodged in the Museum archive -  were by Paul, and all the photographs in the published pattern books were taken by Paul.  The unpublished catalogue of shapes AI –ZK, reproduced in ‘Ysart Glass’, is entirely in Paul’s hand, and all the photographs, which Paul took, are cut out and stuck on to the shape grid, sometimes overlapping the pencil grid lines.  You will probably have noticed that this pattern book, reproduced in ‘Ysart Glass’, is NOT the pattern book which I deposited with Perth Museum in 2005.  That pattern book was a copy which Paul made for Betty Reid’s use in the dispatch office.  He kept the most up-to-date version.  The ‘Ysart Glass’ unpublished pattern book was Paul’s own copy, and I think it is still owned by the family.
One or two other things to bear in mind.
Paul always had the task of shaping every piece of Monart and every lamp pedestal and shade.  That was his particular task as a member of the Chair in the Monart shop at Moncrieff’s.  Paul told me several times that his father always relied on him to match any piece handed to him by Augy which the other brothers had started off, and he in turn handed the shaped piece on to his father (the gaffer) who decided whether it was of saleable quality or met the requirements of a
special order.  This arrangement continued even when Paul stopped speaking to his father after 1932: Augy was the go-between if any message had to be passed between them.
Also, Paul was highly intelligent and articulate, and it is possible that he was given such important responsibilities at a young age because he had many recognised talents.  He was a very good photographer and he was creative.  It was Paul, not his father, who designed and made all the paperweights which were produced before the Second World War.  These were not made as a collaboration with either his father or any of his brothers.  Indeed, he kept this skill to himself, and never made paperweights when the others were present.  They were all made in the evening when the others had gone home, and the company
tolerated this because they split the profits 50:50 when they were sold.  After the war Paul worked in the same way, going back into the factory after his dinner, and he was allowed to sell his share of the weights to whoever he could.  He used to sell them in the pubs in Perth – and got into trouble with the Inland Revenue when he ‘forgot’ to declare his income in his tax return - and later he had a special arrangement to supply weights to Paul Jokelson in the States.
Another factor, which I cannot prove one way or another, is Salvador’s poor command of English.  Paul mentioned this in passing during one of our conversations, and it may explain why, as the eldest son who had done particularly well at school, he was given so much responsibility as soon as he had served his apprenticeship.
During my writings and lectures on Monart Glass I have never suggested that Paul played a dominant role in the origin of Monart.  Clearly his father was a very talented glass blower and had direct experience of working in the French Art Glass industry.  It was Salvador who blew the raffle prize vase, and it was Salvador who developed the colour schemes in consultation with Mrs M. In all earlier writings about Monart, many highly inaccurate (viz. Savage) as we now know, the whole credit was given to Salvador.  I was trying to redress this in my later writings, and I think my conclusions in 2004 that “...Paul Ysart played a larger role in the early history of Monart production than had been previously suspected”, and that”... Monart production generally almost certainly owed far more to Paul’s genius than has previously been recognised” are right.  I stand by both statements without equivocation.
I hope you find these comments helpful, and I have no objection if you want to post them on the GMB.
If you are coming to the June conference we can perhaps continue this discussion there.
Best wishes
Ian

Gary

Offline Frank

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2013, 01:04:51 PM »
Which is much clearer than my memory of the talk  :D.

I was also looking at the two writing samples above and I am not convinced that the handwriting is by different people. One is formalised and the other more relaxed, looking at each matching letter, all show similar characteristics which is unlikely fof Father and son especially as they both went to different schools.
Frank A.
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Offline Gary

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2013, 10:20:57 AM »
The concise reply from I Turner on the subject what member of the Ysart along with Mrs Moncrieff designed Monart shape is most informative, to my reading  Salvador was the main collaborator. At no point does Ian say Paul designed the early shapes of Monart. Below are some quotes from Ian's reply.

"That doesn’t mean, of course, that the ‘prototype’ shapes were all blown by Paul.  They probably weren’t.  It’s possible, especially early on, that Mrs John and Salvador chose both the shapes and colourways"

"During my writings and lectures on Monart Glass I have never suggested that Paul played a dominant role in the origin of Monart.  Clearly his father was a very talented glass blower and had direct experience of working in the French Art Glass industry.  It was Salvador who blew the raffle prize vase, and it was Salvador who developed the colour schemes in consultation with Mrs M. In all earlier writings about Monart, many highly inaccurate (viz. Savage) as we now know, the whole credit was given to Salvador.  I was trying to redress this in my later writings, and I think my conclusions in 2004 that “...Paul Ysart played a larger role in the early history of Monart production than had been previously suspected”, and that”... Monart production generally almost certainly owed far more to Paul’s genius than has previously been recognised"


Gary

Offline Gary

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 09:32:32 PM »
Whilst at the recent Ysart weekend organised by the PCC I came across an article reproduced from the John o Groats Journal (12/5/72) at Broadfield Glass Museum in which Paul Ysart states he left Leith Walk Public School in 1918 aged 14 and began his apprenticeship with his father.
This puts some doubts on the dates that Frank mentions earlier in the thread, that Paul began his apprenticeship at E&L in 1915 and worked at Cochran in 1916.
Gary

Offline Frank

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Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2013, 11:04:04 PM »
Messes things up as the source of the data is the same :-)
Frank A.
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