Author Topic: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?  (Read 2891 times)

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Offline sleeplessn2009

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Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« on: December 26, 2011, 07:54:19 AM »
I bought this "Baccarat" paperweight on ebay (need I say more...)  :ho:  There are actually two signatures on the paperweight.  There also aren't any canes with the numbers and the b on it.

Anyway, she said in the description that Baccarat had signed paperweights a long time ago.  I found some signatures, but don't see the same writing.  Can  anyone help me, and when you answer, if you could tell me whether you are an expert or not.  Or, if you could tell me who I could contact to seek help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks so much!!  If it's a fake, I'll learn a very expensive lesson...

Teri    :rah:
Be kind to one another...you might not get another chance.


Offline Wuff

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2011, 09:49:50 AM »
I am sorry to tell you that this is indeed a fake signature - the weight is a real Murano weight. Baccarat weights are signed either by a signature cane (you mention the ones with a B yourself) or with an etched logo - see e.g.
http://www.paperweights.com/baccarat.htm with a detail image of this on
http://www.paperweights.com/pw2648sig.jpg (beware - these logos are also being faked!)
Baccarat never used such "handwriting".
Am I an expert? I guess on Scottish weights - with some general knowledge on other weights as well - and, yes, there are a few Baccarat and Murano weights on my shelves.
Wolf Seelentag, St.Gallen
Interested in any aspect of Scottish glass? Have a look at Scotland's Glass.


Offline tropdevin

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2011, 10:18:51 AM »
***

Wuff is spot on. A crude faked signature on a Murano weight - there are a few of these around, as anyone with a cheap engraving tool can do it. You will see the odd Saint-Louis version too.

What is a little more likely to fool the more experienced collector is a fake acid etched or hot pressed mark for Baccarat or Saint-Louis.  I gave a talk on Fakes which included such signatures (amongst others) at the PCA Convention in Washington earlier this year, and have repeated it in Cologne and in the UK since.

Below are images of a high quality - but fake -etched mark - and the top view of the Chirano paperweight that carries it.  Most of these have turned up in the USA, with the fake mark on the base of Murano or Chinese paperweights.

Alan

(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_Bacc1996-20042FAKE4RowRedRuffleCanes329606.jpg) (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_Bacc1996-20042FAKE4RowRedRuffleCanes129606.jpg)
Alan
The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton. Please feel free to contact me direct if you do not agree with my comments and do not wish to make your concerns known by posting in this thread.
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Offline pooleandpaperweights

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2011, 10:38:33 AM »
I bought this "Baccarat" paperweight on ebay (need I say more...)  :ho:  There are actually two signatures on the paperweight.  There also aren't any canes with the numbers and the b on it.

Anyway, she said in the description that Baccarat had signed paperweights a long time ago.  I found some signatures, but don't see the same writing.  Can  anyone help me, and when you answer, if you could tell me whether you are an expert or not.  Or, if you could tell me who I could contact to seek help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks so much!!  If it's a fake, I'll learn a very expensive lesson...

Teri    :rah:

Teri, more importantly, you said you brought it on ebay.  You should be able to return it for a refund if you paid by Paypal.  Just message the seller that it is indeed a fake, and say you wan tto return it.  If they don't reply, then you need to do a "significantly not as described" via Paypal.  Post the weight back making sure you send it recorded delivery (it must be able to be tracked online) and when it is signed for when it gets back to them you can then submit that it has been signed for on the SNAD, and paypal will refund you even if the seller ignores the SNAD.  If they are a reasonable seller, they should of course refund you immediately anyway and let you return it.....

These fakes are well known and documented, so shouldn't be a problem. 

Hope you did indeed pay by paypal!

Ian


Offline pooleandpaperweights

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2011, 10:47:05 AM »
Hi again.

Having found the listing:  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Baccarat-Multi-Faceted-Concentric-Millefiori-Signed-Paperweight-3-Days-/260901419731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbeefbad3

I see they sort of question if it is a baccarat in the listing.  The rule in the UK for this would be covered under what we call distance selling regulations.  They are obviously a business seller with 3014+ feedback, and because they are a business you can return anything for any reason brought basically online as you see fit.

As they are what appears to be a professional I would hope they will take a return without having to resort to a SNAD or similar though, you should definately ask.....

Ian


Offline Wuff

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2011, 10:50:06 AM »
Well - the seller described it very "carefully" - which makes me suspicious - see
http://cgi.ebay.ch/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260901419731
There it says "Baccarat?" and "Please make your decision on bidding on this weight based on the knowledge that you have on weights" >:D.

Seller goes on "Signature: Engraved "BACCARAT" on base as shown. Please note that Baccarat did use a signature like this during the teens." - which I would consider simply wrong!

His reference is "Glass Signatures, Trademarks and Trade Names written by Anne Geffken Pullin on Pg 53" - does anyone have access to this book and could check?
Wolf Seelentag, St.Gallen
Interested in any aspect of Scottish glass? Have a look at Scotland's Glass.


Offline tropdevin

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 11:30:00 AM »
***

I don't know the book, Wuff, but it seems to be written in 1986. However, the content will only be as good as the research - and it is easy to find information that may not be quite what it seems.  If you search for Baccarat Crystal, for example, you can find the legitimate company website (baccarat.com).  But you will also find 'baccaratcrystalglass.com' - an apparently authentic, informative, and official looking website. It may all be good information (I have not checked), but the website is actually registered to a Portuguese gentleman in a shopping centre in Portugal...

Alan
Alan
The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton. Please feel free to contact me direct if you do not agree with my comments and do not wish to make your concerns known by posting in this thread.
 http://www.pwts.co.uk


Offline scavo

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2011, 02:44:33 PM »
Was it sold for a fixed price or at auction? I believe the rules about distance selling and refunds are different for fixed price and at auction are 'Let the buyer beware' (caveat emptor). I believe this applies on ebay for auctioned goods.

I believe that if it was sold at auction you can return it and ask for a refund for any reason. If it was sold at auction you entered a legal contract to buy when you placed the bid. YOu also agreed that you understood the description.

I've looked at the item I think the seller was careful with his wording not to claim that the item was Baccarat, merely bore the signature.

However, if you could prove that the item was indeed a fake, then you would be able to get a refund as ebay do not allow fakes to be 'knowingly' sold.

The seller does ask buyers to satisfy themselves and gives a reference for this kind of signature. Here the seller could be seen as demonstrating his own sale in good faith.

I'm sure a lawyer could argue the toss either way. But is it worth it for $185?


Offline pooleandpaperweights

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 07:02:35 PM »
Its an ebay auction, sold for best offer, but SNAD should apply as it's very obviously not a baccarat weight.  I would try asking the seller nicely first though.....


Offline Sach

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 05:18:46 PM »

His reference is "Glass Signatures, Trademarks and Trade Names written by Anne Geffken Pullin on Pg 53" - does anyone have access to this book and could check?

Amazon has 42 copies on sale for prices between $0.35 and $39.99 US.

 

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