Author Topic: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?  (Read 3919 times)

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Offline KevinH

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 11:25:38 PM »
The Geffken Pullen book covers Baccarat marks from the end of page 52 to the end of page 53. The ONLY case of the Baccarat wording without additional "logo" details is the final entry, which is accompanied by a date (1915) as an example of a signature "engraved on cameo ware" - Note the cameo ware part.

As has been stated by others, I agree that the signature on the Murano weight is false.

My own expertise is mainly with Ysart paperweights, but over the past 17 years of collecting weights I have studied lots of books and discussed various fake signatures with many other collectors.
KevinH


Offline scavo

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2011, 12:51:41 PM »
I am convinced that this is a fake Baccarat, and that is the question raised by Teri.

But I am interested to know the outcome of any request for a refund. The seller did leave the authenticity up to the buyer to decide.

If it were a fixed price BIN sale then I think there would be no dispute about getting a refund. But if you made an offer, surely the offer reflected a level of doubt about the authenticity. Does the offer act like an auction bid?

It would be good to know for my own selling of items that are not 100% in attribution and also as buyer who may himself buy a fake in the future.

Teri, are you going to ask for a refund?


Offline tropdevin

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2011, 01:04:12 PM »
***

I think the refund issue may be quite complicated, because it appears that the buyer and seller may be in different countries not both within the EEA (the seller is in the USA).  As I understand it the The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 (which are relevant to BIN sales within the EEA) would not apply to this sale even if it had been BIN.

Alan
Alan
The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton. Please feel free to contact me direct if you do not agree with my comments and do not wish to make your concerns known by posting in this thread.
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Offline mildawg

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2011, 04:33:11 PM »
I wouldn't think ebay would refund.  They are not in the business of allowing someone to buy something, then try to confirm its identity and return once it was not confirmed, unless some correspondence occurred that the 2 parties agreed to this.  I believe they would say this needed to be completed prior to purchase or else pass.  Exception would be if it could clearly not be determined by the pics presented in the listing or the buyer blatantly misrepresented the item.. I don't believe this is the case here, as many have noted above.  This one will have to be chalked up to a learning experience, me thinks!


Offline pooleandpaperweights

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2011, 05:08:18 PM »
I'll say it again.  It is a significantly not as described (SNAD) via Paypal.  Paypal are incredibly buyer sided and would almost certainly refund once it can be proven it has been posted to and received by the seller.  It is nothing to do with ebay.

The worse one which paypal do is refund a buyer if an item isn't posted by a trackable online method of posting.  I've had people request untracked postage and then claim through paypal when they say they don't revieve it.  Under paypals T&C's they refund the buyer without recourse if something is sent untracked.  Don't ever send anything untracked unless you know the buyer well!

Teri, I would ask for a refund first, the seller can only say no.  They do have over 3000+ feedback with 100% so will almost certainly want to protect it.  As ebay do not allow sellers to leave negative feedback, there is no possible way you can possibly have anything done which impacts you.

I really think it's obvious the seller knew it isn't a baccarat weight, people don't list things with ?'s unless they think it isn't right.  Any seller worth anything will and should refund you on return without having to involve paypal etc.....

Let us know what you decide to do and how you get on!

Ian


Offline mildawg

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2011, 08:24:59 PM »
I look forward to the outcome.  Ebay, paypal whoever, I don't think the description weighs in favor of either on doing anything about it, but hope I am wrong.  I fortunately have not been stuck in this situation.  The buyer, if they are upstanding person, will do something.  The description is written ambiguously but certainly gives fair warning that you may not be buying an authentic piece.

Please do keep us apprised of the outcome.


Offline scavo

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2011, 08:36:55 PM »
I am again interested in the outcome of a refund request. I don't see how it is a SNAD when the the seller says it has the word ... not it IS.

Ebay are firmly against people selling fakes of any kind. I think the buyer could get a refund if they could demonstrate that it was a fake ... however, this is policy is policed by the copyright holders.


Offline sleeplessn2009

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Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 01:44:07 AM »
Whew!!  Thanks everyone for their help!!  I've had quite a busy week, and I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner.  I didn't think anyone would be on because of the holidays... 

Ok, update.  I've contacted Paypal.  The first lady said (after seeing the listing) that 'they did put a question mark after Baccarat.' I told her that my sister tried to list an AUTHENTIC belt and purse bought at the Gucci store in Rome, but was asked for a receipt. She didn't have it, and they took the listing down.  The listing started at $50!!  So, they let THIS seller list something like that with all the question marks, etc... w/o doing the same thing?  I told the first lady that if that's all I need to do is put question marks, and vague wording in the description, then I'm going to the flea market and getting a ton of Coach bags and add the "?" after Coach...(I said this sarcastically, as I know this is a felony.)  Then I was transferred to a supervisor after my smart a$$ remark...LOL!! 

The supervisor came on and said the same thing, so I asked her for her name and repeated her words as I was writing them down and said I was going to order some Chanel purses for $50 from China and use the same wording 'she said' was sufficient for the listing...  She backed up.  I told her that distribution of counterfeit items applies, also, to ebay and if they  don't get my money back then they will all fall under the RICO act for aiding and abetting crimials.  I said there is enough counterfeit selling going on ebay to start a claim, and if that's what they want, then 'bring it'...   Boy have I learned a lot during the last few days...

I said the fact that it #1. Was a 3 day listing (usually used for counterfeit items because they usually get the listing pulled before 7 days)  #2.  The fact that the seller even doubted the authenticity of the item, put question marks, etc... and if there is doubt, they shouldn't list it, especially when it is a felony to even try and sell it.  #3. It's a felony for those who sell it, an additional felony for using the postal service, and a felony for whomever has it in their possession, and an additional felony on the part of the buyer if he/she turns around and sends it through the mail back to the seller.  Distribution of a counterfeit item is distribution, even if it's given away. 

The seller wrote me and was like, "So, usually the buyer will get in touch with me to resolve the issues first...Just wondering why you didn't."  I responded, "Well, yes, but I didn't want to go back and forth and get in an argument about it.  You should have never listed it if you had doubts."  Etc...

I'll keep everyone informed, and thanks to everyone for their help!! Especially those with references to what it is and what was in the book.  If I can ever return the favor, please let me know.  (As long as it's not about paperweights...you know I'm clueless...LOL!!!)   

Happy New Year everyone!!
Be kind to one another...you might not get another chance.


 

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