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Author Topic: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?  (Read 3232 times)

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Offline flying free

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JP there really is no point  ;D my collection of decent pieces is so tiny.....whereas my collection of  errrhumm, 'learning curve' glass, is rather vast - and bearing in mind I call anything a collection once I have three pieces  :24:
m


Offline flying free

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http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/41326-loetz-turmalin-prod-nr-2-536-1902?in=666
Loetz vase here with a number gilded on the base that is a Dekor number.
just adding to the thread with info that may be helpful in the future  :) so another example of a Loetz piece that has a decorator mark on the base.
m


Offline flying free

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and here is a Loetz vase signed with 2 sets of numbers including a P - comment indicates that the P may stand for patent
the description in case it disappears in time, says
'Loetz Enameled Bird Vase.  Very similar to Alpen Red Decor... c.1893 '(for description of pic again in case it disappears,  in my eyes it looks to have a glossy deep dark red surface, not see through really, and is enameled with heavy gold enamelling of a bird and leaves, flowers, branches)

On the bottom it has enamelled numbers 691/1 P.265

http://www.jwartglass.com/sys-catalog_single_details.asp?catid=16517&categoryID=4992&category=Y&seq=2&PageID=128532&SiteID=34884

Edited to add later:
 but... at the bottom of that link it says see Loetz Bohemian Glass 1980-1940 (sic) for a similarly enamelled piece.  Out of curiosity I looked at that page in Truitts - it's the Harrach section and I couldn't see a similar piece.  I then turned the page to page 56 and there is a vase (different decor, different shape) there also under Harrach that does have quite remarkably similar gilded enamel decoration.  So can it be the same decorator for a Harrach and a Loetz piece?  I presume it can?

m


Offline flying free

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edit to above post - I meant to say the reference  says to look at page 54, and also to add that the book referred to is not the Truitt book, but I just looked in it out of curiosity as it's my 'new' purchase  :)
The enamelling is similar on the Harrach vase but not identical.  However I guess this doesn't help tease out whether or not mine is one or t'other conclusively anyway.  But it does show that Loetz vases did have the enamelled numbers on the base.
m


Offline flying free

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and is confirmation also that the letter P is shown enamelled on the base of some Loetz vases along with numbers.  I wonder if the numbers could be the production number and/or the reference for the enamel decor then?
 :) I know, I'm talking to myself at the moment, but I don't want to lose the references and my train of thought  ;D and I can't afford to buy the books to check lol
m


Offline obscurities

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Loetz did use some numeric designations on various styles of decorated pieces.

Attached is the underside of a DEK 1/290 & a DEK 296

Craig
I have been told that glass is my mistress......


Offline flying free

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thank you  :sun:
m


Offline azelismia

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that mark is a definite Harrach Mark. Loetz tends to either just be numbers or limited to the I in their markings. the P.xxx is a classic form/ mark from Harrach. I have a number of Harrach pieces that are marked in that fashion.

Imho This is without doubt a Harrach piece.

I have a number of Harrach pieces on my web site. if they are marked I have included the marks. The yellow ones as I recall all have p.xxx marks.

http://www.thegildedcurio.com/



Offline Ohio

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azelismia stunning collection. I have to add though that under American #58 is not Steuben, its Beaumont, Wheeling, WV & the etching is Wheeling Decorating's D-51 Drapes. It is found in your opaque blue & your opaque ivory, batch colors from Beaumont S & P shakers in the late 19-teens thru early 20's. I have its twin. I will say that there is a bit of local Wheeling lore attached to these that concerns a young blower from Hobbs that left for Corning, stayed there for only a couple of years & returned to Wheeling going to work for Beaumont, but the hometown Wheeling Decorating's Drapes is the key. Ken


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Hi Azelismia, thanks for your comments  :) and what a fabulous site you have - thanks for the link.

I have not been able to find a complete match on shape with either Harrach vases or Loetz vases.  I feel pretty sure the decor (marbling) on this is the same as many vases I have looked at, identified as Loetz Carneol Marmoriertes.  I suppose it doesn't mean they all are Loetz but I've assumed if they are a firm id that they have been matched to the Loetz known shapes for this decor.  Assuming is not good I know.
I also assumed Truitt's would have done a match with the documented  Loetz shapes for the pieces they have pictured.  
In Truitt's page 87, my vase is the closest in shape and a match for the decor to  the vase pictured top right no1.
Where it doesn't match the Truitt description is:
1) they say the early vases were coloured glass over clear and used no uranium (my vase is coloured glass over white and uses no uranium)
2) they say by 1890 the glass had a pink or white lining and the white striping of the glass contained uranium salts (my vase has a white lining but doesn't contain uranium salts)
I assume again, that they have tested this theory with all the vases they have pictured and that they are sure that no Loetz Carneol Marmoriertes was produced with a white interior but not containing uranium.
I'm interested to see if there are any Loetz Marmoriertes piece out there with a white or pink interior that do not contain uranium.  If there are then either a) this disproves what they have said or b) the vases are not Loetz.
So, if they have proved this theory and all are documented Loetz shapes, then no, my vase does not fit their criteria, but yes, it has a matching decor.

I would think that for my vase to be classified as Loetz I need to be able to match the shape to a documented Loetz shape for it and I don't have access to that data.  

If it is Harrach, then I think it poses an interesting debate in that the decor is the same as the Loetz Carneol Marmoriertes.  I think it could also call into question other pieces id as Loetz in this colour and decor.
Thanks again very much for taking the time to reply.  It is much appreciated.
m

 

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