Author Topic: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer  (Read 1060 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mhgcgolfclub

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 955
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2014, 04:52:55 PM »
I think this is the sugar bowl Bernard was describing pattern number 1616, both pieces have the word PATENT, the creamer also has the Sowerby trade mark while the sugar bowl also has a faint date lozenge. The only part I can read is the day 19

Roy


Offline Paul S.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 5890
  • Gender: Male
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2014, 06:43:36 PM »
another piece we've discussed before - a Sowerby sugar with just the word Patent. 
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46153.msg258828.html#msg258828  -  and is possibly one of those that Bernard has mentioned in this thread.


Offline agincourt17

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 1055
  • Gender: Male
    • Pressed glass 1840-1900
    • Wales
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2014, 09:37:18 AM »
Roy’s sugar and creamer look like Sowerby enamelled Blanc de Lait (though Cottle seems to describe the technique as ‘stained’ rather than enamelled – perhaps some pieces were stained and some enamelled?).

Most of the of shapes that I have seen in stained  or enamelled Blanc de Lait are shown in Sowerby’s pattern book IX (1882), but Roy’s sugar and creamer are giving me some problems at the moment.

The nearest pattern shape I can find is indeed Sowerby pattern 1616 (shown on page 12 of Pattern Book IX, 1882) – except that the floral patterns on the panels of Roy’s pieces are different to those shown on pattern 1616, and the handle on the creamer in the pattern book has ‘bobbles’ whereas Roy’s is plain.

Simon Cottle has a colour photo of creamer 1616 on page 54 of his book “Sowerby – Gateshead Glass” which is definitely in accord with the Sowerby pattern book drawing and shows the ‘bobbly’ handle and that the stained floral decoration has ten ‘daisy heads’ per panel compared to the five on Roy’s creamer and sugar.

Hajdamach (‘British Glass 1800-1914’) shows a sugar basin on page 352 (colour plate 43) with the description “Sugar basin in white vitro-porcelain enamelled with flowers, Sowerby, marked with the peacock’s head crest and the registration diamond for 19 October 1881, and the word PATENT, height 3 5/8 inches (9.2cm)”. It has floral panels with 10 ‘daisy heads’, just like Cottle’s 1616 creamer and the 1616 sugar in the Sowerby pattern book

The only problem with Hajdamach’s description is that there doesn’t seem to be a Sowerby design registration on 19 October 1881, though there is a Sowerby design registration (RD 365165) for 19 MAY 1881 – Parcel 9, described by Cottle and Thompson as ‘sugar’). It may be that Hajdamach has misread an indistinct month letter on the registration diamond – May = E and October = B, not dissimilar basic letter shapes. 1881 would seem a likely year for pattern numbers somewhere in the 1600s (e.g. 1616), as pattern 1568 accords with an RD 362734 on 1 March 1881, and  pattern number 1672 accords with RD 374774 on 15 December 1881. 

The other Sowerby pattern that has a sugar and creamer with floral decoration vaguely similar to Roy’s set is pattern 1446 (and that comes in plain variants and stained Blanc de Lait versions) but the actual shape of the 1446 sugar and creamer are quite different .

I will endeavour to trawl through the Sowerby pattern books and other standard Sowerby reference books over the next few days, but there seems to be a disparity between Sowerby pattern 1616 and Roy’s pieces - similar shape (and quite likely the same registration diamond) but different floral pattern on the panels (and, of course a ‘bobbly’ handle to the creamer instead of the plain handle of Roy’s creamer). Maybe Roy’s sugar and creamer are previously-undocumented RD 365175 / pattern 1616 variants.

Still not sure how any of this ties in with a Sowerby Patent though.

If Paul S. happens by this post, I wonder if he has the registration representation of RD 365175 (19 May 1881 – Parcel 9) to hand for comparison, please?

Fred.


Offline Paul S.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 5890
  • Gender: Male
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2014, 11:03:04 AM »
Fred  -  I have a National Archive pic of Sowerby Rd. 365165 - which is what I assume you meant to say in your last paragraph - and will watermark this and post after lunch, together with Sowerby Rd. 350084 dated 24th May 1880.          I think that 350084 might also be of interest as it's possible it's another shape that is related to these enameled/stained items that Roy has introduced.

However.................  this thread might be in danger of getting a bit overloaded now that we've branched out and started to discuss these enameled/stained pieces produced by Sowerby, so I had it in mind to start a new thread for the latter as I feel there is some mileage yet to go, and didn't want to confuse the issue.
There is an important piece of confusion relating to these white pieces which I wanted to air and a new thread is perhaps the best way forward  -  but I'm open to suggestions.

What do people think  -  let me know, and if you're happy for me to simply continue 'in situ' then I'll just bash on. :) 


Offline agincourt17

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 1055
  • Gender: Male
    • Pressed glass 1840-1900
    • Wales
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2014, 12:49:25 PM »
Thank you, Paul.

I look forward to seeing the National Archive pics for RD 365165 and RD 350084.

I don’t have any pics at all for RD 350084 described by Cottle and Thompson as a sugar [basin],  though I do have some pics for many of the other RD numbers in the RD 350083 to 350093 bundle - all with pattern numbers in the 1470s and 1480s.

I agree that this thread is becoming overloaded and in danger of diverting significantly from the original topic title, so I have no problem with a new thread re. the Sowerby stained or enamelled  pieces (though referencing links between topic threads would be useful).

Fred.

Offline Paul S.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 5890
  • Gender: Male
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 04:37:36 PM »
I might be slowly losing the plot on this one ;D, but here are the pix I mentioned.
You've already mentioned problems with these Sowerby pieces which is that having recorded an original Registration for a certain basic body shape -  the factory then seem to have created minor variations to such parts like handles, for example.
Your reference to the plain handle on Roy's creamer compared to the bobbin shaped handle in Cottle - page 54  -  both styles of handle on what is presumably the same body shape.

Anyway here are pix for 365165 and 350084............    the reason I've included the latter is that I think it's the vitro-porcelain two handled bowl showing in Cottle at the top of page 54 - let me know if you agree or not.
Whether the similar shaped bowl adjacent to it comes under the same Registration (it appears to be more or less the same shape) I don't know.

It would be a big undertaking but you might perhaps try and list all of these enameled painted white vitro-porcelain designs at some point, and I'll try to fill in the Rd. Nos. if I can.


 

 

Offline agincourt17

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 1055
  • Gender: Male
    • Pressed glass 1840-1900
    • Wales
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2014, 08:51:15 PM »
Thank you very much for the pics, Paul.

So now there is confirmation that Sowerby RD 365165 of 19 May 1881 – Parcel 9 corresponds to Sowerby pattern 1616 as illustrated on page 12 of their pattern book IX (1882).

It also seems that Hajdamach must have misread or mistranslated the registration diamond for the caption referring to the pattern 1616 sugar shown in plate 43 of his book.

I think it’s quite likely that there were minor variants on a design, all with the same registration diamond, where the design was basically just for the shape, just as there are different shapes in a suite of pieces where the registered design was for the decoration.

As for RD 350084 of 24 May 1880 – Parcel 8, I would agree entirely that the shape is the same as the stained or enamelled sugar basin shown at the top of the colour plate on page 54 of Cottle’s Sowerby book. This sugar basin corresponds to Sowerby pattern 1482 (which is shown with the same floral decoration on page of their pattern book IX (1882), alongside a matching creamer with the same pattern number). So, another gap filled in the RD and pattern number correlation lists.

Although the smaller bowl shown to the right of the RD 350084 / pattern 1472 sugar on page 54 of Cottle has a quite similar shape, it actually seems to be Sowerby pattern 1568 (shown on page 11 of their pattern book IX, 1882) to which Cottle attributes RD 362734 of 11 March 1881 – Parcel 2 (and which Cottle and Thompson describe as a ‘sugar [basin]’).

Just for completeness, the stained / enamelled rectangular section posy / spill vase (with chequered top and stylised flowers raised in relief over horizontal ribbing on each side ) shown at the bottom of the quartet of pieces on page 54 of Cottle’s book  is Sowerby pattern  1239, correlating with RD 314268 of  18 September 1877 – Parcel 7 (and shown on page 4 of pattern book IX (1882).

Fred.

Offline Paul S.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 5890
  • Gender: Male
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2014, 08:55:33 PM »
great work Fred - keep taking the asprin ;)

Offline Keencollector

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2014, 03:39:45 AM »
Here is the primrose version of Roy's "Richelieu" three part dish.  It also has Rd 96945 and PATENT on bowl.

Offline Keencollector

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 03:52:29 AM »
Another example of PATENT appearing on pearline pressed glass items.  The stand is marked NEVILLE PATENT.  A three piece version of this cruet does appear in a Davidson publication so must be one of the moulds purchased by Davidson after S. Neville glass closed.

 

Search
eBay.com
eBay.co.uk

Link to Glass Encyclopedia
Link to Glass Museum
Enter
key words
to search
Amazon.com
This Website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand