Topic: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?

[flying free]

I've been trying to research something and I'm a little confused with what I am seeing and with some info in various threads.
I do realise that lots of makers made trailed glass in a similar vein, i.e. Webb, Harrach, Stuart, Walsh and Richardson...or those are the ones I've come across so far.
I've found a vase here
http://www.millersantiquesguide.com/items/127380/a-late-19th-century-stuart-sons-/
that states this is Stuart late 19th century.
However I think I've found an advert with this vase in for 1907 - no maker stated though(I'm still waiting to check final details).  I suppose this piece could have been designed and made for that length of time or longer and would this explain the dating difference?
I also think I've found a very similar piece in the same colourway identified as being made by Walsh.  Would the two makers both be using what looks like this amethyst colour as trails?  I recognise that many of these vases have similarities but these have so many that I am just wondering if they have come from the same maker, and ie. that the vase I've linked to is not a Stuart piece.
I've also found a reference that Stuart didn't make a wavy rimmed mushroom posy until the 1930's.  How wide would the rim need to be for a piece to be classified as a mushroom posy? It's just that I have a picture of what I thought were mushroom posies one with a waved rim and one with a straight rim, trailed as in the linked piece with peacock trails, and the advert is 1907.  So my thinking is that if Stuart did not make this until 1930's then the pieces in the advert which are mushroom posies won't be Stuart.  If you see what I mean?
Any thoughts much appreciated.
thanks

[flying free]

Adding Stevens and Williams to the above list of peacock eye and trail makers - pattern numbers 30633, 30634, 30635 -

And some observations:
1) that one of the mushroom posy vases in my ad,  the one I mentioned with the flat rim, looks remarkably similar to a 'Harrach' posy vase, Truitts page 67.
2) that a vase in Truitts page 67 (no 4)  whilst not being identical, looks to me as if it is exactly the same maker as a vase in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass page 37 plate 68, tall footed vase at the back.  I know it's difficult to tell from pictures, but either it's the same maker or someone copied someone on that vase.
edited to add: On the Style and Design webpage the tall one shown in Truitts is here listed as Stuart and with a rider on the items featured, stating there are errors in the books -
link here scroll down and there are a group of vases on the left - http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/estoz1.html
3) The picture in CH 20th Century British Glass shows 6 vases all of which bar one, appear to have a dot in the centre of the eye.  The one on the left does not... and the eye and trails and especially the way the bottom trails have been applied look very similar to the vase on the very left of the Harrach group in Truitt's page 67 (vase 1)
4) There are apparently differences in colour between the Harrach plate and the 20th Century BG plate with the Harrach version looking dark bottle green and the Stuart versions looking paler and more olivey - do we know if this is a print production issue or were they really different greens?

Sorry , I'm at home feeling ill and sorry for myself so I've got time to pontificate  
m

[flying free]

Question -
In Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass page 37, there is a group of trailed glass vases.
In the caption it states
'Group of vases with applied peacock trails, c 1900-1910, from the large collection of glass saved after the closure of Stuart Crystal.  Stuart and Sons were a major producer of this style and the Stuart collection contains many examples but collectors should be aware that the  other Stourbridge glass factories including Thomas Webb and Stevens and Williams, also produced their own variations which are difficult to distinguish from the Stuart ranges.'...

Would I be right in reading  that the group pictured on that page is not definitively id'd as all Stuart pieces, but just that the group of pieces came from the Stuart collection?
I would have thought that if they were definitely id'd as Stuart the caption would have stated 'Stuart vases...' or ' vases made by Stuart' in some way.
m

[flying free]

There is one vase in the group mentioned in my post above that appears in a Harrods Catalogue dating I believe late 1907 for the 1908 year (based on the fact that on page 13 of the catalogue Harrods gave their list of dates for their auctions for 1908)
It is the flared vase at the front 2nd left on the picture on page 37, with the amethyst eyes.
This appears in the Harrods catalogue page with apparently a green central 'eye' rather than the amethyst I think as it is  under the heading
'THE 'NEW GREEN JEWEL' DECORATION
'Best English Manufacture.  New and unique shapes in bowls and vases.'

see picture below

Vases with this decoration appear on a different page and with a different range name to two other groups of vases with trailed decoration in the catalogue.  These appear under separate range names and appear to be different ranges.

The range name headings are:

'THE ORIGINAL ENGLISH "PEACOCK" DECORATION'.  

Under 'The original English 'Peacock' Decoration' there appears to be the tall vase at the back of the picture on page 37 of 20th Century British Glass (CH) and also a vase which in nearly all respects is the same as the vase pictured on the far right of page 37 (difference being the vase in the catalogue picture has a flared base rather than curving inwards)

and

'THE "ENGLISH JEWEL" DECORATION'.

Under this heading there is a vase with the same code number as a piece under 'The Original English 'Peacock' Decoration' - slightly different rim and different design to the trails but basically the same vase.

So my thoughts are, are all those vases pictured on page 37 of 20th Century British Glass from the same supplier and are they all Stuart?
and I wonder if all the vases Harrods picture under their three different range headings, are Stuart supplied pieces?  If so then perhaps the Stuart range names, instead of Cairngorm that I am familiar with, would be
 'NEW GREEN JEWEL'
 "ENGLISH JEWEL"
 "PEACOCK"

It also 'appears' from the way they have phrased the headings and range names and descriptors, that in the 1907 for 1908 catalogue the 'NEW GREEN JEWEL' is a new range, but the other two perhaps appeared in previous catalogue years.
m

[flying free]

Many of the pictures in this linked thread have disappeared or are not linkable any more http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1901.msg12914.html#msg12914
Is there another link where I can view them?  And did the Webb vases with applied trails ever get uploaded anywhere please?

Glen, you mentioned a Harrods advert for 1909 with English Peacock designs.  Was this picturing vases such as the handblown  tornado vases or was it for the type of vases pictured in CH 20th Century British Glass page 37 please?

thanks in advance for any help
m

[johnphilip]

A lot of new information has been written since 2009 i believe the Glass Association did an artcle on these in one of their  journals and copies are still available from them , i also think our Nigel has been doing some reading on the sublect .

[flying free]

~thanks JP,  I am trying to get a copy of that at the mo.  Unfortunately there isn't anything listed here on the GMB about these vases though and all the pics have disappeared.

m

[Paul S.]

I had written a little before jp commented - and hope that Nigel will be able to help.........but will let some of what I had written stand, since it makes reference to a very similar example that possibly you hadn't seen.

Although I haven't registered to see the remainder of the details, seems a great shame - in view of the fact this is unmarked - that they haven't quoted the source of provenance/attribution for this piece  -  particularly frustrating in view of Hajdamach's comments to the picture on page 37 of his 20th Century British Glass that "these were made by other Stourbridge glass factories"

Cairngorm/smokey quartz/amethyst were popular semi-precious stones in the latter part of the C20 - although apart from the one piece of amethyst on page 37 in Hajdamach, must admit I've seen only green trailing/eyes on the typical A. Stainer/Stuart nouveau pieces  -  see Miller's C20 Glass page 234, which shows an almost identical piece but with green instead of amethyst  -  and is stated to date from 1909.    It's always possible that with the known Stuart provenance of the green/metal example in Miller's/McConnell  -  then an assumption has been made for the almost identical amethyst piece in this new offering from Miller's.       Just a thought.

The only way to resolve this - on the assumption that no one here provides the answer - is to contact Miller's and ask politely for the source of their provenance/attribution.

     

[flying free]

Paul, yes I have Miller's as well and saw that one    I assumed they must have seen the Stuart Pattern books etc to positively id it?
Gulliver's has one registered Stuart design in it which has a peacock eye trail. RD no486685 on page269.  I think this is a piece from the range that Harrods call 'English Jewel' in their end 1907 for 1908 catalogue  (a range that I think may have also been in the catalogue the previous year (i.e end 1906 for 1907 catalogue).  In the catalogue the foot and knop are incredibly similar but the bowl is different.  It is  more trumpet shaped but with a very similar rim and with trails that swirl a little round the body rather than fall straight down.  It could be that this is a newer variation on rd no 486685 possibly or just a range extension.
My feelings are that this range 'English Jewel', is a Stuart range based on this, but because it is not an identical piece to the design in Gullivers it's difficult I suppose.

Edited to add - something occurred to me from what you wrote - maybe Cairngorm was one of the names Stuart gave to their  colours or colours of their trails?  see wikipedia "Cairngorm is a variety of smoky quartz crystal found in the Cairngorm Mountains of Scotland. It usually has a smokey yellow-brown colour, though some specimens are a grey-brown. (my underlining)
m

[Paul S.]

hello m  -  I won't comment further since I don't have personal experience of this 'nouveau' style of pre 1920 Stuart glass  -  hopefully, Nigel will be able to add some positive comments, which will help you

I believe that the Scots sometimes used the 'cairngorm' form of quartz with which to decorate their sporrans - it was also used also quite commonly in brooches  -  and apparently it's possible to create smoky quartz by irradiating the clear form.