Topic: 17th century nipt diamond shaft and globe decanter

[Paul S.]

sincere thanks Peter for your explanation

[Paul S.]

It may be of interest to comment that whilst looking through other images of coloured table glass etc..........I notice that there was another style of decoration similar to 'nipt diamond waies', and which was used rather later in the C18 (as opposed to the late C17).
There are Bristol blue bonnet glasses and cream jugs from the latter part of the C18 which were decorated with something called a 'trellis moulded pattern'  -  similar to NDW but perhaps less proud on the surface, and with more openely spaced diamonds - but maybe similar enough to cause confusion.       
This later date would fit more appropriately with the purple/amethyst colour, although the suggestion of a later date for this piece is my personal opinion only (and could be very dodgy).

[freeblown]

Just to clarify, the diamonds on this decanter are hand nipped and are not made in a diamond patterned mold. The mold itself had pronounced vertical ribbing that was then pinched or nipped to form the diamonds. If I am not mistaken  Paul, the trellis moulded pattern has the diamond pattern already in the mold. You are probably far more familiar with 18th century Bristol glass than I am but I would not think that they would have used the German half post method in Bristol in the late 18th century as is how this decanter is made - unless they were purposley copying an earlier style which I guess is possible.

Robert

[Paul S.]

quote from Robert........."You are probably far more familiar with 18th century Bristol glass than I am"...........I only wish I was Robert     Thanks for the clarification re the hand nipping of the diamonds.      Let's hope that Peter is able to add more information now he has your pictures.

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
           2 replies have been received ,and both basically said the same thing,

 Based on the info re lack of pontil and ground rim along with the photos.
 Although it is not possible to be 100% certain without actually having the item in the hand, the likely hood is that both the decanters are mid to late 19thc revival pieces and probably German in origin,both had nothing to add re the stoppers.

 Both contacts are very long established dealers in 17thc glass,so this would seem to confirm my original suspicions on this decanter.

Rob ! you could if you wish contact Corning Museum of Glass ,giving them the same information and photos and see what they say ,or if you are close, send it to them,I would suggest contacting them first,if the current curator is unable to give his own opinion I am sure he will pass it on, possibly to Dwight Lanmon ,ex curator of glass and seek his opinion. I suspect though the result could be very much  the same as above.

Cheers,
            Peter.

[freeblown]

Thanks for your efforts Peter. A few questions come to my mind. Pertaining to the stopper, if this were a mid to late 19th century repro would they really be going to the trouble making custom ormolu stoppers with different cyphers as is the case between my stopper and the stopper on the decanter in the AU museum? Also, the thin threaded shaft on the inside of the stopper that the cork slips onto is hand threaded and the tiny square nut that screws onto it is hand cut. It would seem to me that by the mid to late 19th century these parts would have been machined and not made by hand for a reproduction decanter. The gold ormolu is also quite thick, much thicker than what is usually seen on later 19th century plated wares suggesting it was applied using the old mercury method of applying the gold.

In my experience reproductions also tend to be more common. I have been a glass hound a very long time and the only other one I have found is the one in the AU museum. I will certainly take your advice (eventually) Peter and get the decanter over to Corning. I am also wondering if determining the chemical composition of the glass would be of any use. There may be ingredients found in later glass that are not found in earlier glass and that could help to date this piece.

Again, thank you very much for your efforts.

Robert

[oldglassman]

Hi,
  " In my experience reproductions also tend to be more common. I have been a glass hound a very long time and the only other one I have found is the one in the AU museum."

I have found the reverse to be more common,if decanters with the features of yours(no pontil and cut rim) were period , being very desirable items they would probably be documented or at least known by those who have handled many of them ,but who knows ,till its in the hands of someone with the knowledge to say yes or no its up in the air.

"I am also wondering if determining the chemical composition of the glass would be of any use"

This would probably help  but would I believe require a piece of glass to be removed ,crushed up then subjected to analysis, not something i would want to go ahead with whether real or repro.

Good luck in the future trying to get to the bottom of this 1 and please let us know what the results are .

Cheers ,
             Peter.

[freeblown]

Will let you know what I find out Peter. I do know that the chemical composition of glass can be determined in a non invasive way using X-ray flourescence. They have the ability to do this at Winterthur Museum in Deleware. I am not sure what the cost is though. I have also heard that if the glass has a lot of lead in it, the lead masks the other elements from being determined using XRF so that technique may not work with this decanter if it is lead glass.

Peter, You may find this book of interest if you don't already have it - Art of Glass Glass in the Collection of the National Gallery of Victoria It is of the glass collection in the museum that has the decanter like mine. They have an extensive collection. Some of this book on the collection can be read on line here - http://books.google.com/books?id=laWX3BnLENgC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=Art+of+Glass+Glass+in+the+Collection+of+the+National+Gallery+of+Victoria&source=bl&ots=sOMHr_uKFO&sig=ZITqlA0UQ5Men0Qbfs-ht5n9ZNI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iCZvT7TtPKai2gX04vnxAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Art%20of%20Glass%20Glass%20in%20the%20Collection%20of%20the%20National%20Gallery%20of%20Victoria&f=false
It says on page 10 that their collection was examined by "eminent Keeper of Ceramics and Glass at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, Robert J Charlston." One would think he would have told them of a reproduction were he to view this "English" bottle and think it a reproduction. The bottle was part of the collection when he went there in 1977.

Robert

[freeblown]

Below text was recieved from the V&A Museum Ceramics and Glass dept. concerning the decanter:


"Thank you for your e-mail, which we must apologise for not having
replied to sooner.

Although it is quite difficult to tell from a photograph, your bottle
looks Dutch or possibly English, dating from the  17th Century.   In
that period lead glass was almost certainly made in the Netherlands, and
although this type of bottle was also made in the 18th Century, the
shape of your piece looks earlier. 

I cannot be sure that the mount and stopper are contemporary with the
bottle, but it is certainly possible.

I hope that this information is of some inerest to you."

Yours sincerely,

Ceramics and Glass Collection
Victoria and Albert Museum

[oldglassman]

HI Rob ,
                yes it's all very interresting when you start to dig around ,however was the V&A aware of the construction method ?,this to me and to those I have spoken to is the anomaly , all have agreed that they have no knowledge of late 17th c bottles of this form being made without having a pontil mark and having a cut rim , I would return to them with this question .

One of the replies to me ,did mention Howard Phillips ,mentioned in the museum paper linked to,and his involvement in supplying glass to collectors and museums in Australia , this did not change his current opinion of the decanter !!!!!!

I hope you take the trouble to have it looked at by as many current scholars as you can , if indeed it is a period piece then it really would be rather special if indeed it was made in this manner in the late 17thc.

  Good luck with the hunt , it's always fun .

Cheers ,
             Peter.

oooops  forgot to ask, any chance of a shot of the underneath of the decanter?