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Author Topic: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)  (Read 8416 times)

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Offline flying free

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2014, 02:06:43 PM »
I have been wondering for a long while whether or not these could be Turkish.  Or something other than Bohemian - the propellor mark on the one earlier in the thread threw my thinking off slightly, but the thought has remained.
Today I spotted this one
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Small-Beaded-Decorated-Moroccan-Black-Webb-Art-Enameled-Glass-Floral-Bud-Vase-/111264742114?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item19e7e53ae2
that lime green colour is a colour I've seen in glass I think attributed as Beykoz or at the least Turkish glass (dredging memory here)  It's something that always strikes me as a quite individual colour whenever I see it, and the glass never looks Bohemian to me - something about the shapes, or the colours or whatever.
So... could these be Turkish maybe?

edited - mm, that colour is more yellow than the limey green I'm thinking of so perhaps not.

Just for reference though, here is a collection of Beykoz opaline sold through Christie's - they use a lot of floral decoration and black outlines
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/nine-beykoz-white-and-turquoise-blue-opaline-ewers-5723121-details.aspx
m

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Offline glassobsessed

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2014, 05:19:22 PM »
Two more for reference.


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Offline flying free

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2014, 06:56:37 PM »
It is possible, that this vase (see link) is where the misattribution to Webb came in
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/enameled-japonisme-vase?page=7&query=cameo&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=222

It has some similarities in shape and opaline decorated glass, and even the patterns if you like (but none in technique and execution of enamels to my eye)
m

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Offline KevinH

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2014, 07:42:17 PM »
M, I am not convinced that the vase in the link to the Corning Museum item would be the source of a misattribution to Webb! And I am also not convinced that all items with the generic "Moroccan" (or whatever) decoration style which are suggested as "Webb" are misattributed.

In Post 16 above (please see for full context), Cathy said:
Quote
Manley references a Webb sketch book of 1879 but I have no idea whether the sketch really shows the same decor, which is described as alabaster-cored, with square top and enameled.

For completeness, and as food for thought as to whether Manley may have been the source for the Webb attribution,  the following is the full text from page 75, Item 185 in Manley's Decorative Victorian Glass, published 1981:

Quote
A vase for identification, most deceptive. The first impression is obviously French, but Thomas Webb's records (sketch-book of 1879) describe them as alabaster-cored, with square top and enamelled, and it is only when a number are placed alongside each other that this is realized, all differ in some way. 19.7 cm (7 3/4 inch) high.

There was also an earlier publication, Collectible Glass, Book 4, British Glass, copyright 1968, which was based on Cyril Manley's collection. That book covered many of the same items as shown in the later book but it did not include the "Item 185" from the latter. I mention this as it may be an indication that Manley secured the "Item 185" vase much closer to the preparation date of his later book. But it could also mean that it was simply not selected for the earlier book!

And on the subject of dates, I wonder whether the possible Turkish items are all very modern "copies" of the style and decoration. To my eyes, the colours and condition of the decoration seem much brighter than the few examples (Webb, Harrach or "other Bohemian") I have seen in books or illustrated elsewhere.
KevinH

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Offline flying free

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2014, 10:40:36 PM »
Kev thanks.  I don't have the Manley book but am now thinking I need to get it.  It's hard to picture what item 185 might look like.
The Turkish possibility was just a thought really to throw into the mix.

Also, just because I'd forgotten, re-looking at Ken's vase which started this thread, all his black outline flowers in the panels are gilded as is the rim.
To me, they all look as though they are done in a similar vein, but some are more sophisticated than others.  I do think the rose vase I've linked to belongs in the 'set' for example, but it was a much more 'sophisticated' piece in terms of execution of enamelling (but not in terms of the glass blank it was on if I recall) than the little bowling pin shaped vase I've added as the first one.


I've added pictures of the few I've had - I don't have them anymore but none looked new to me.
The first one I've linked to was done in a much less sophisticated way than the other two btw.

The bright one I linked to previously (not mine- yellow/greeny colour on it, on ebay) seemed to have a lot of wear around the rim so I'm not sure about the age of the brightly coloured ones.  I guess pictures can be deceptive either way though and it makes it difficult to assess unfortunately.
m

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Offline flying free

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2014, 10:44:00 PM »
and this is one enamelled in a similar way and highly decorative but a different style of decoration.#
It has glittery stuff around the central rose - I mention is because it looks like the one John put on  might also have this.
m

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Offline glassobsessed

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2014, 11:39:01 PM »
A big difference between Ken's original vase and the rest seems to be condition - the gilding is still extant, there is little on the two vases I have here with just scattered fragments remaining.

Only one has the odd white-ish glittery stuff that m has spotted, using a loupe you can see it is bubbly, which gives the sparkly effect.
 

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2014, 11:43:11 PM »
oh yes.  I can spot some gilding on the bubbly stuff round the rose now.  Perhaps the bubbly stuff was some form of glue then to adhere the gilding to?

Kev, I know what you mean about the colours and condition comparisons (I think),but I think it is very difficult to make a judgement on the colours and condition of enamelling to be fair. 
Enamelling on glass photographs extremely badly in my opinion.   Photography highlights all sorts of flaws that occur in the firing of enamels, that you just don't see when the piece turns up in the hand.  It also highlights the smallest little flake or piece of damage, that again, once you have the piece in hand, is incredibly difficult to spot.   I have to say I have never been disappointed when I've received an enamelled piece of glass.  Quite the opposite... it always looks much better in person than it did on the pics.  I also have a three hundred year old piece of enamelled glass where the colours are superb and intact and the gilding is miraculously also still intact. 
m

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Offline glassobsessed

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2014, 11:46:25 PM »
It would give a bit of texture but it seems to be used sparingly, perhaps more for emphasis.

Going back to Ken's vase again, the same texture can be seen quite clearly in spots with gilding on, quite effective. It would look good in candle or lamplight.

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Re: Elaborately Decorated Vase (way over the top)
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2014, 11:54:18 PM »
we cross posted John as I was adding to my post above :)
m

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