Author Topic: tumbler converted to tankard  (Read 482 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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tumbler converted to tankard
« on: April 07, 2012, 09:53:07 PM »
according to my only book on tumblers these conversions seem to have had some popularity around the 1850 period, although why go to the trouble and cost of adding the handle, I'm not sure  -  maybe converting a tumbler was still a lot cheaper than going out and buying a new tankard.        This one has the pre c.1860 'pump' style of handle - is about 4.1/4" inches tall - and the inscripiton (in C19 script) says  -  "A Present For A Simpson 1854".    Unfortunatley, it has a flake/chip missing from the rim, so of no commercial value, but the first of its kind I've found at a boot sale, and definitely worth keeping.
Whether the inscription was applied to the glass before the handle, or vice versa, I don't know.   Remarkably clean for its age really, just a few stones and bubbles, and as with so many working class/utility/tavern pieces, sets you off dreaming as to the places its been and the history its seen.
Anyway, it was just for looks, but anyone more than welcome to comment.

P.S.     Does the word 'script' have anything remotely in common with the word 'inscription', or is it my imagination :)


Offline Mosquito

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 01:08:29 AM »
I'm curious as to what you mean when you talk about converting a tumbler being cheaper than buying a new tankard??

What I see here is an early press-moulded tankard with an applied handle. the handle would have been applied when the item was made, soon after the body had been turned out & was still hot - a way of making a slightly different item from a standard tumbler mould - much the same way that pressed pieces can be cupped, crimped, flanged, etc. to make a range of styles from one basic form.

I've had several pieces of early pressed glass that were similarly constructed - i.e. made in parts like many blown glass pieces would have been at the time. For example, somewhere in the back of a cupboard I've got a small glass with a pressed bowl but standing on an applied stem & foot & with a cracked off pontil scar. Constructing pieces in this way is not so surprising as you can see a transition between blown glass making and press-moulding techniques. Of course, as time progressed and moulding techniques improved, handles could be formed in the mould meaning production could be speeded up & simplified. For me, however, I find these early pieces charming due to the mixture of techniques they show.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 10:05:51 AM »
thanks for the interesting reply Steven - I've almost certainly mis-interpreted published comments, and convinced myself that - on occasion -handles were applied to tumblers subsequent to the production of the original drinking glass, hence my suggestion that the handle was an additional cost at a later date.
Of course, I was wrong completely in describing this as a tankard  -  utter rubbish  -  most definitely a tumbler body.   Tankards are/were very different things.     
What I should have said was 'converted to mug or can' - but I'd have been wrong again, since since to the best of my knowledge both of those designs have straight sides. 
I'm attaching a picture of one or two other pressed tumblers I have - dating from about 1840 to about 1940/50 (including Durit and Crystolac) -showing the rather traditional shape that we have come to recognize as a tumbler -       It doesn't pay to read too many dictionaries when looking for original meanings of words  - if you want to be confused try reading Barrington Haynes, Brooks, Newman, Ash and the OED for meanings of tankards and tumblers!!   
So then, this is a tumbler, with a handle applied at the time of manufacture, and possibly not that common.    Thanks again.


Offline oldglassman

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 10:48:46 AM »
HI ,
           I would say your item is a' Mug', possibly even for punch or toddy , yes books can be misleading , B/H states that a Tankard is a footed mug, nonsense, Tankards ,at least those from the 18thc can be with feet and without feet , they can be straight sided , flared or even barrel shaped .all having a handle,tumblers too from the 18thc  can be straight sided ,flared or barrel shaped , some even have applied trailing to the bodies , I also have some items similer to yours and much smaller,press moulded with applied handles , the smallest ,around 2 ins tall can have spouts , so a small cream jug I suspect,so i dont think your item can be called a converted anything , add the handle and it becomes a mug or a tankard , I think the size would determine which,interresting things though which is why I have a few ,as Steven said,you can see a transition between blown glass making and press-moulding techniques.

cheers,
         Peter.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 03:49:29 PM »
Many thanks for your contribution Peter  -  I do have one or two rummers that have seen use as hot toddy glasses in their active lives, and they have almost always acquired a roughened bottom of the inside - due to the practise of crushing the sugar.     However, can you have a toddy without crushing sugar, thus avoiding the dull bottom?               I'm inclined to go more with your idea of a mug for punch.
I get the impression that the British didn't have the desire for true tankards in the way that the Continentals did, at least you seem rarely to see pictures of them when searching through U.K. drinking glasses.


Offline oldglassman

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 04:50:33 PM »
  HI ,
           I think the problem is that they are just not very well documented,they don't seem to be that uncommon (at a price),they can come as i said in all shapes and sizes , here are 3 which I have photos of , I have others that are barrel shaped with trailing and also Continental examples  , I will put up a few more when the photos are done for any who are interrested to have a look .

Cheers ,
           Peter.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 09:43:37 PM »
very nice pieces  -  strap handles, gadrooning in the second picture, and machine threading possibly.     The gadrooned tankards I would have put at 1830 - 1850  -  the other has an earlier style of applied banding, which may have been a Continental type of decoration, also somewhere in the first half of the C19 (just possibly late C18)  -  but I believe what you're saying is that all three are British.


Offline oldglassman

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 10:27:24 PM »
HI ,
            Yes Paul I would say they are all British and fairly typical examples dating from the mid to late 18thc , I have not yet come across continental tankards in lead glass ,both the gadrooned examples have English silver coins in the base of the bowl at the foot join , the small 1 has a 1787 sixpence and the larger a silver 1787 shilling , this  I believe was the only year during George the 3rds time  that silver coins were minted  and often seen in tankards of this type and are considered contemporary with the coins, we know that a coin does not give a date for anything only that it wasn't made before the date on the coin , no machine threading on these its all hand applied , and the larger of the 2 gadrooned ones has a folded foot with the coin in a compartment above , see the Hubbard collection lot 227 for a similar gadrooned tankard without coin , dated 1780,yes they did continue into the 19thc , but by then the metal was quite different to 18thc examples .

Cheers ,
             Peter.


Offline oldglassman

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Re: tumbler converted to tankard
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 09:47:22 AM »
Hi ,
           A couple of others,again both believed to be English 18thc , the barrel example some consider to be from 'Bristol '. :-\
It is interresting to compare 18thc glass tankards to silver examples of the same date , like glass candlesticks they seem to follow the fashion of the day and this would appear to help with dating ,I think by the 19thc Tankards had been superseded by rummers as larger capacity drinking vessels and those tankards that were produced had features like capstan stems etc which help to date them as later examples.
(I could continue with several continental examples that I have but i think this thread has been hijacked enough by me )

Cheers
          Peter.



 

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