Topic: question re matching numbers engraved on decanters and stoppers

[Paul S.]

this coupling of matching Nos. on stopper and body (neck usually), is mostly a C20 habit, but does occur in the second half of the C19, and is probably a bit older than I'd imagined.
In the entire five hundred and seventy odd pages of Andy McConnell's book - 'The Decanter' - there appears to be extremely little comment on the subject of  'matching Nos.  -  at least those that are diamond point or stylus engraved into the glass' (as opposed to the enamelled sort), and which was the original subject of this thread.

Page 84 includes the sentence.............   "With every stopper-decanter match unique, some 19th century stopperers engraved numerical match marks on the neck of each decanter and its stopper to assist their reunion."
With the greatest respect to Mr. McConnell who doubtless has forgotten more about glass than I shall ever know, this information is perhaps uncharacteristic of his usually more accurate and precise evaluation regarding a given specific detail of glass history.        The implication may have been that it occurred during the entire century, or that it has been found on bottles made during the second half only  -  but it lacks sufficient detail to be of real use.       

I don't now collect C19 bottles, so have perhaps lost track a little of their features - and we don't seem to have Board members who indulge currently, so lack their accurate input.          I'm still sceptical that engraved matching Nos. on decanters go back further than the last third of the C19  -  but am dying to be proven wrong  -  so if Neil is able to let us have some confirmation, or anyone else come to that - then we can all breath a sigh of relief, and say "well, that PaulS was wrong, again".

[flying free]

It's not a question of right or wrong  it's about stirring debate and eventually being able to provide evidence for an assertion/identification -  brainstorming is what leads to that   
and btw - thank you so much for all your work at Kew.  I really appreciate seeing those primary sources.
m

[Paul S.]

gee - shucks - I bet you say that to all the boys here...................               glad you find them interesting.

[flying free]

 

Paul, here's one for the record then :
an enamelled dark blue decanter identified as Russian, dating according to Bukowski's to c.1800.  I would more or less concur with that but perhaps going up to c1830 as a possible timeframe referencing Das Bohmische Glas Band II pages  30-35 and specifically plate II.28 page 33.  There is a dark blue one in DBG Band II page 33 that is enamelled with white enamel detail - it has no base shot (sigghhh) and is said to have been made  'Umgebung Haida' (surroundings of Haida).  i.e. there is no identified maker.

It has a cracked off pontil mark and an enamelled number 4 (?) on the base - possibly a 4 but perhaps a letter?
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/571/954-a-russian-blue-glass-bottle-circa-1800


m

[Paul S.]

thanks m.              I'll admit freely that I have virtually no knowledge of Continental bottles, and in particular decorated coloured ones with matching Nos. applied by means of enamelling  -  so certainly wouldn't presume to disagree with Ms. Cecilia Nordstrom (apologies for the missing accent mark)
I suspect we've digressed a little from the original subject of 'engraved numbers' - and quite happy to accept that for whatever reasons there are different chronologies at work here regarding whether the applied Nos. are enamelled, engraved and/or country of origin.
It's also worth remembering that most of us here, for whom English is a first language, have a tendency to think automatically of features of British made bottles - such an easy trap to fall into when discussing almost anything historical.

Think I said a long time back, that to some extent it's possible to suggest a rough estimation of period of manufacture from the type of script or font of the engraved matching No.                 Certainly in the U.K., the Victorians were very keen on their Nos. being largish and slightly florid,
a habit that went hand in hand with their copperplate script and a leaning toward alphabet letters with substantial serifs - features that remained popular until well into the C20 until the advent of fonts such as Gill Sans.
As these things progressed through into the C20, our writing habits leave behind much of this C19 embellishment, both in size and decoration, and appear more plain.

Still waiting for someone/anyone to provide pictorial assistance  -  do I recall a certain Moderator who has a substantial collection of bottles

[flying free]

yes, we have digressed from engraved matching numbers on stoppers and bases/necks, but thank you for your observations about the style of scripts - that's interesting.

However, I think enamelled matching numbers fit in there as well and since there appears to be a dearth of discussion over this feature in books, then it's no bad thing it is being discussed here

Another important feature of that decanter is the pontil mark finish - it's not dissimilar to the finish on my piece ...hence my interest in it in the first place.  Also very interesting that Bukowski's appear to have put base shots on quite a few of their sales items.  I wish that all sellers and auction houses would do this.  I'm sure there's a reason for not doing it (like keeping their hard earned and costly information for id'ing to themselves) and I understand that completely, but it's very frustrating.  (infuriating actually when you've spent nearly £200 on a book and not a single base shot to be seen!)
m