Topic: Salvador or Paul Ysart inkwell?

[Gary]

My question would be "was he gifted the whole of this collection on retirement" - it seems quite a lot to be gifted - or was SOME of it a retirement gift and other parts collected by him over time?

As we all know, stories about grandads / grandmas things can often be a part of the truth, but not necessarily the absolute truth!

Just to add - whoever made it it is a lovely thing, and I thought one of the nicest pieces from the auction 

To reply to your first question Roberta, he was gifted the whole collection on his retirement (hearsay from his grandson) which is not a great present after 46 years service (no information of any other retirement present), what you have to remember, these pieces cost Moncrieff literally a few pounds to make. Also at that time 1961 Monart was running down production and was no longer considered of any use.
I have no idea if he collect Ysart glass before or after his retirement.

It is definitely IMHO by Salvador Ysart, thanks Roberta it was the piece I really wanted from the sale.
Gary

[SophieB]

Hi everyone,

As he said, Gary's bottle was sold at Lindsay Burns on Wednesday where a collection of mostly Monart items was auctioned. The auction room included the following for all the items in the collection:

Provenance: Alexander G. Hendrie, Supervisor/ Works overseer at the Moncrieff Glass for 47 years, retired in 1961. The present lot was formed part of a display housed in the Shore Works, Shore Road, Perth and was gifted on retirement.

This was placed under 14 glass items included in the sale (from lot 374E to to lot 374R). Still, I am sure that the attribution was wrong for one paperweight lot - lot 374H:

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/lindsay-burns-and-company/catalogue-id-srli10006/lot-a0b51ac8-29fd-484a-a609-a4760103b041

This was Ysart bros or early Strathearn but never a Monart paperweight.

In view of all that, I am not so sure that we ought to rely too much on the statement of provenance. As Roberta says, time does all sorts of things to our family stories.

It is a lovely, lovely bottle anyway.

SophieB

[KevinH]

Thanks everyone for the extra comments and questions.

I agree with Gary that the purple base inkwell with purple striped neck is a Salvador Ysart item.

I agree with Sophie that the Lot 374H (octagonal paperweight) was not a Monart item. But I do not think it would have been Ysart Brothers - more likely either Vasart Ltd or, as Sophie says, Strathearn. It was difficult to tell from the auction photos whether the weight was one of the range of moulded ones or was faceted.

I think the auction wording "... present lot was formed part of a display ..." was ambiguous. What did they mean by "was formed part of"? Perhaps it was supposed to mean that all of the lots from Mr Hendrie's collection formed the full display; but it could equally have meant that all of those lots formed part of the display

I agree that Gary's point:

... why would Moncrieff Glass have this ink bottle,on display and given as retirement gift, if it was a Vasart piece

is the main indication of a pre-war attribution for the bottle. My own thoughts earlier were deliberately avoiding that part of the reasoning, in order to see if all of the other information could fit with a pre-war production.

[SophieB]

Hi Kevin,

I don't think I will ever be able to recognise Ysart bros from Vasart Ltd  . Many thanks for the correction 

Could you give me some pointers to help distinguishing them?

And to answer your question, the paperweight was moulded.

SophieB

PS: Sorry! Gary, I had not read properly and had not realised that you had already quoted the auction description... Oups!

[KevinH]

I suppose it's a bit off topic, but ... just for Sophie (and anyone else I guess) ...

How to Distinguish Ysart Brothers Weights from Vasart Ltd.
1. Make sure in your own mind that it is "Ysart type"
2. Make sure in your own mind that it is not a PY weight
3. Use a shortwave uv lamp - if the reaction is Blue it's Vasart Ltd or later. Otherwise it's Ysart Brothers (first period Vasart) [or perhaps a pre-war Monart period by Salvador!!]

Easy

[orangeglass]

Question - if Gary's gorgeous inkwell is pre-war - could some of the ones assumed to be Ysart bros/Vasart also be pre-war? As we know canes can be used over a long period, so ones that Salvador used at Monart,  could he also have used later? Does the UV reaction therefore become the best way to date these? (does this work on glass same as the paperweights?)
Also, is there any evidence that Salvador and Paul both used the same canes at Monart whilst working together?

Are there any definitive answers to the above?

(Sorry had a glass of wine now  )

[KevinH]

Hi Roberta,

I have been investigating all of those questions for many years. I recently added a request under the British & Irsih Glass forum: Attention all MONART collectors ... in the hope of covering some of the ground once again.

To answer your questions, my understanding / observations so far are:

1. If there is any definite proof of an assumed Vasart item actually being a pre-war piece, then yes, some of the many other items might also be pre-war.

2. There are known pre-war Ysart canes that are used post-war in Vasart items and on through Strathearn and in "unknown maker" work, too.

3. The uv tests will work on any item that has enough clear glass to show a reaction. But for non-paperweights, it is often only by looking at the edges where clear glass shows that a uv reaction can be seen. But the uv reaction of pre-war Monart and Vasart items is pretty much the same!

4 a) For pre-war Monart non-paperweight items, the same canes were certainly used by all of the Ysart men. This is a simple consequence of their production routine where each of them had a particular role - with main shaping by Paul and finishing by Salvador.

4 b) I have evidence, from examination of paperweights, that a number of canes can be found in both Paul's and the other family members' post-war work. This strongly suggests that although Paul (and perhaps Salvador) had "personal canes" pre-war, they probably did get "shared". I suspect that when Ysart Brothers Glass was started, lots of canes, including some thought be personal to Paul, were just picked up and taken to the new venture. And ... Some of the canes in Vasart items that are said to be "Salvador personal canes" are also known in Paul's paperweights ... with the most likely explanation being that they are pre-war canes that migrated to "both sides of the family".

[SophieB]

Hi Kevin,

Many thanks for all these explanations.

With regard to the distinction Ysaert Bros/Vasart, I may be able to do stages 1 & 2 (more or less successfully), but cannot do step 3 at all (at least not at the moment). So I will have to ask... you 

SophieB

[Gary]

Hi everyone,

As he said, Gary's bottle was sold at Lindsay Burns on Wednesday where a collection of mostly Monart items was auctioned. The auction room included the following for all the items in the collection:

This was placed under 14 glass items included in the sale (from lot 374E to to lot 374R). Still, I am sure that the attribution was wrong for one paperweight lot - lot 374H:

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/lindsay-burns-and-company/catalogue-id-srli10006/lot-a0b51ac8-29fd-484a-a609-a4760103b041

This was Ysart bros or early Strathearn but never a Monart paperweight.

In view of all that, I am not so sure that we ought to rely too much on the statement of provenance. As Roberta says, time does all sorts of things to our family stories.

It is a lovely, lovely bottle anyway.

SophieB

I agree totally what you say, it was not a Monart paperweight, even with my limited knowledge of paperweights, I did say to Nick Burns ,prior to the sale I did not think that was a Monart paper weight, one cannot rely on family stories and it is a lovely bottle 

The only definite way of proving if these type of ink bottles are pre war, is if a labeled piece ever turned up and to date none has, to my knowledge.
Gary

[KevinH]

The only definite way of proving if these type of ink bottles are pre war, is if a labeled piece ever turned up and to date none has, to my knowledge.

Yes - except if a label has been reapplied incorrectly by a collector or auction house after falling off another item. Actual proof, beyond doubt, is so difficult.

But maybe one day an article will be found, in something like a magazine or newspaper showing a pre-war date, that clearly illustrates ink bottles of this type. One main problem we have is that inkwells never appeared in the Monart catalogues, although they were clearly based on shapes of one or two Monart scent bottles.