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Author Topic: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori  (Read 5575 times)

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Offline tropdevin

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2013, 10:22:56 AM »
***

Hi m.

One problem with attributions is that different people have different views - so a shop such as Libertys and an auction house like Boisgirard may not agree with each other, or with some collectors! You only have to look at eBay to see just how off the wall some attributions are, and the big auction houses can be badly wrong too. I have seen some strange attributions by Bosigirard and by Bonhams, for example.

As alpha indicated,  Philippe Frère wrote the best article on Grenelle,  in last year's PCA Bulletin.  That included 63 images, mainly of Grenelle pieces.  There are no identical cane matches to yours, but the white shard rose is quite similar.  Paul Dunlop gave a talk at Wheaton in 2012 where he looked at a whole range of antique European weights, forming 14 different groups, most of which are not yet attributed to factories.  The canes in yours match some in weights he referred to as 'Factory 8'. These pieces are not from any of the big 3 factories, and probably not St Mandé.

I think the best guess on yours at the moment is French, factory as yet unidentiifed, possibly Grenelle, possibly not!

Alan
Alan  (The Paperweight People  http://www.pwts.co.uk)

"There are two rules for ultimate success in life. Number 1: Never tell everything you know."

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.

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Offline flying free

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2013, 08:26:10 PM »
ok, I'm 'at rest' for now then :)
And thank you for sharing the extra info - I very much appreciate it.
(in my defence I do now have Sibylle Jargstorf's book and have managed to find two of my weights in there, but not the tree :)  )
m

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2013, 10:51:46 PM »
just having a search around and came across this thread on the GMB that appears to have a paperweight with similar canes in to mine.
The roses appear to be the same, as does the cane with stars in.
https://plus.google.com/photos/105319207644601120535/albums/5088161420828978577?banner=pwa
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16293.msg95355.html#msg95355

There appears to be matching rose canes across Hazel's, mine and also the one Hazel linked to in the Christie's 2005 catalogue.
Also I think there is a match between the tubey green canes in mine and the Christie's one (if their colour is distorted), and I think there is a link between Hazel's blue star canes and one in mine and another that links mine to the Christie's one is the blue tubey cane and also the cane that is white with blue flower type stars in it (mine is squished so difficult to tell, but it looks remarkably similar)
I think they are all from the same maker.

I think the rose cane is the link between all four of these weights, the three I've just mentioned including mine and also this one
http://www.pwts.org.uk/exhib99/Antique/Bohemian/13conc.JPG

Making the link to what Alan wrote above then my next question would be, if the article on Grenelle weights included 63 pieces mainly of Grenelle and there were no matches to my weight, then are there any in Paul Dunlop's group of Factory 8( which did have some matches to canes in my weight), that also match to any canes in  the Grenelle weights in Philippe Frère's article?

I may be wrong but the roses in all four of the weights I've just discussed are, I believe, a match.  Therefore if there are none in an article featuring 63 weights mainly Grenelle, I'm wondering if my weight is not Grenelle at all on balance iyswim?

m

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Offline tropdevin

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2013, 06:48:15 AM »
***

Hi m. 

As with any 'difficult' area of paperweight ID, there will be a number of attributions that have been given in the past (in good faith) that are incorrect.  With hindsight one can spot errors in just about every book and many auction house catalogues (including Selman, Bonhams, Christies etc).  As we slowly find out more about the past makers, the attributions change - and hopefully become more resilient.  In his latest book Peter von Brackel identified a whole range of Bohemian / Silesian paperweights, but concluded that one group that he had previously thought might be Bohemian  - with examples very like your paperweight - were from an unknown French factory.  So I think the jury is still out...

Alan
Alan  (The Paperweight People  http://www.pwts.co.uk)

"There are two rules for ultimate success in life. Number 1: Never tell everything you know."

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2013, 06:55:43 AM »
Hi Alan
.

I understand, from reading about the Ysart, Vasart, Strathearn, Perthshire lineage, that what you say is correct and that it can be difficult to pin point. 
I'm just pleased with myself for finding 2 more that I believe have matches including the rose :)
m
Edited to add:
I was not casting aspersions on the Christie's catalogue nor anyone elses previous id's :) I understand how previous attributions do change when more evidence becomes available.  But that shouldn't stop me being able to try and identify my own weights I feel :) I was merely using the weights to demonstrate the matches, rather than focusing on the identification of the weights' makers -
 although it may be a little disconcerting if the previous attribution was presented as a firm identification I suppose.

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Offline tropdevin

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2013, 08:07:41 AM »
***

Hi m.

I would love to know who made these pieces - and several other antique paperweights I own, one with a good rose. I suspect that far more factories than we currently credit made a few paperweights at the height of the classic period, and in various countries.  But I live in hope: material that has turned up in the past few years and been made available because of the web has helped tie down some pieces, and I am sure more will follow. Also, technical advances in glass analysis may permit us to group paperweights more accurately.

For example, we now know that a particular style of moulded lion / bee / dog paperweights  was made by Baccarat in the 1880s (because we now have the catalogue pages that show them).  And the 'Mount Washington' plaque nonsense has been ended, as the Russian attribution is confirmed by the existence of relevant pages from the Maltsov catalogue (not to mention examples of the plaques being on display in the Maltsov museum in Dyatkovo - which they have been for ages, but this seemed to be treated as an inconvenient fact that got in the way of accepted - but wrong - 'wisdom').

I am sure we will find out much more about the origins of currently 'unknown' paperweights - but please don't ask when! ;D

Alan
Alan  (The Paperweight People  http://www.pwts.co.uk)

"There are two rules for ultimate success in life. Number 1: Never tell everything you know."

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2013, 09:35:00 AM »
well I'm ever hopeful :)
Is there a difference in the pantone (? couldn't think of another way to describe the hue and tone of the colours - not sure if that is the correct phrase to describe glass colours) of the colours used over time periods?  I ask because the blue in my weight appears to be the same as the blue in a Bohemian overlay vase I own from c.1850/1860 and both the green and the blue in mine appear to match the same green and blue in a Clichy weight I have.
The blue is particularly difficult to match. 

I found a few more that I believe are possibles -
The first is a pic of the Christie's one on Hazel's link showing better colours - weight 316

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-paperweights-mid-19th-century-4545491-details.aspx?from=searchresults&&pos=10&intObjectID=4545491&sid=03c6362c-503f-4e19-9415-d6a93c574dfe&page=5

The other two, I feel also possibly are from the same maker:

This one has a rose with a large clear centre that looks to be the same as one on mine as well as the green tubey cane
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-clichy-type-macedoine-weight-probably-continental-mid-19t-4351550-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4351550&sid=481e054b-df8b-481c-8f02-9b03458bfa2b

Lot 320, has the same spirit and colours but it's difficult to see the detail
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-patterned-blue-ground-millefiori-french-mid-19th-4545497-details.aspx?from=searchresults&pos=73&intObjectID=4545497&sid=a2876434-2366-46d7-bb54-01f47443db1a

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Offline tropdevin

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2013, 09:48:00 AM »
***

Hi m.

I agree that each link shows one example (amongst the groups of paperweights) that are probably from the same factory (and not Clichy!).

I don't think you can draw much of a conclusion from the shade of blue.  The darker blue in just about all antique weights is made using a small amount of cobalt oxide as colourant (it is very strong), and is hardly affected by the glass composition.  It will look much the same colour whether it is from France, England, Bohemia - or even Roman times.  What can affect the apparent colour is any inherent colouration of the clear glass.  The paler blues / turquoises are a different matter: these colours are usually copper based, and much more sensitive to the glass batch.  As potters will tell you, you can get brighter, intense colours more easily using lead based glass than soda-lime glass.

Alan
Alan  (The Paperweight People  http://www.pwts.co.uk)

"There are two rules for ultimate success in life. Number 1: Never tell everything you know."

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2013, 10:24:51 AM »
Thank you for the explanation of the blues.
Yes not Clichy -  when I said above 
'.... - although it may be a little disconcerting if the previous attribution was presented as a firm identification I suppose.' I didn't mean disconcerting for me, but was trying to be polite, meaning disconcerting for a buyer who bought it firmly id'd as Clichy perhaps :)

But that led me on to searching Christie's database for weights under 'Clichy', to  try and find more that were similar to mine - in which I was successful  ;D
m

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2013, 10:39:38 AM »
see my reply above :)
Also for reference adding a picture of a cane I found just now, looking more closely at the weight.
Looking through the thread, I hadn't put a picture of this on  before
I'll try and get a clearer pic and amend.

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