Author Topic: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori  (Read 2102 times)

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Offline flying free

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Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« on: May 13, 2012, 11:56:26 AM »
I thought this might be easy to find a match as it looks quite distinctive, but I've been unsuccessful to date.  I have been looking rather randomly as I wouldn't even know which country I thought it might be from.
My pictures make it look a little blurred but in fact it's very crisp and the blue and white has a lovely effect of making them look as though they have been drawn on with an ink pen.  It's pretty (well, in my eyes it is  :) )
The canes are positioned in a scrambled 'layer' mid way up the weight with clear glass below and above in the dome.  It is 2 1/2" wide by 1 5/8" tall and has a polished sort of concave base or  very large pontil mark type base with a ring of wear around it, possibly a fine ground ring underneath the wear.
any thoughts much appreciated
Many thanks
m


Offline Nicholas.

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 05:09:38 PM »
Hello,

Your weight, apart from being attractive, really is most interesting and would appear to date from, or near to, the classic mid-nineteenth century era of paperweights.

You may well have noticed the white rose-canes with green sepals that this weight contains; the characteristics of these, together with other canes present, could well provide clues that would help with the attribution of this weight. The only problem there is that I suspect that some of the published attributions for rose-canes have been postulated without sufficient concrete evidence and so may well be misleading.

I'll get out some reference books and try to come up with some further information but perhaps someone who carries such information in their head can come back with some ideas straight away.

Nicholas
Nicholas


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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2012, 05:35:38 PM »
Nicholas, thank you very much, your observations are interesting as my knowledge of paperweights is zero (vases are my addiction).

 I have tried to look for various of the canes that are showing but so far I've not been able to match them.  However...I did not notice the white rose-canes with green sepals -  I was trying to match the blue and white ones and the big plain white ones as they seemed to me the most obvious. I will go and look up rose canes now and see what I can find.

Edited later to add: I am very embarrassed to admit that the 'plain white' canes I was looking for appear to be the 'white rose-canes with green sepals' you refer to - I just somehow didn't notice they all had green in them  :-[

Thank you for taking the time to look at my weight, I appreciate it.
m



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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2012, 06:18:08 PM »
Something I did notice that might help, is that there are two white and pink canes (are they called complex canes?), white little circles with a pink surround to each circle forming a cane that looks like a flower,  that look as if they are sitting on the top of a side-ways on white striped cane. And on the other side there are two more, very tiny, that are squished into either side of a blue and white cane and sort of sat in the middle of one of those white-rose canes with green sepals. I don't know if this helps, and my apologies for not using better terminology but I really don't know what I am describing unfortunately.
m


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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2012, 10:42:12 PM »
With the information from your reply I have done some more searching.
Would the type of base finish indicate this might be French or are there also other places that finished their weights with a concave polished area and a ground ring?
When I typed in rose cane what came up was Clichy although I presume from your answer there were other makers who used them.
I have found green and white rose canes now that are id'd as Clichy, however I don't think the ones in this weight are the same.  Mine do not have a central 'stamen' or middle bit in them.  They all seem to just be the white petals with a green exterior on the them.  I have also read that Clichy used cobalt blue sparingly and there is a lot of it in this weight.
I have found a Clichy weight that has a couple of canes in which have similarities though.  The canes that make up the outer circle of the millefiori are the same as those in two of my millefiori but the central bit is different.  I'm presuming that lots of makers used similar ideas so I guess the fact that the central bit is not the same possibly also precludes them?
m


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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 09:03:31 AM »
I think I was mistaken about the rose canes in my weight.  There are something like 12 or so rose canes and having looked very closely at them, there seems to be two different kinds - most are plain white with green sepals, but the little pink complex canes I pointed out on the previous message actually seem to be the middles of some of the rose canes.  I have now found a good example of one right on the edge which is white with the complex pink centre and also has green sepals. (see top pic below)
It also seems where there are what looked like the twin pink millefiori, it is in fact two rose canes with pink centres sat squished together - there are two sets of these, but one set has another blue and green cane put between it to separate the pink middles.
I'm not sure if this helps or confuses things. I'll add some more close up pictures which may help a bit


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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 09:18:13 AM »
a couple more pics
green tubey type cane with a cobalt blue flower centre ( I have found one similar to this with the green tube surround canes) top picture just to off centre to the right and down.
and a blue tubey type cane with flower centre
m


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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 03:34:52 PM »
I think what has happened with what looks like the 'twin' sets of pink flowers is that the flower cane had been split open lengthways and what would have been the middle pink tubes that formed the complex flower centre have either been curled upwards at each end and into the middle, thereby showing the ends of the group of 5 tubes as two flowers, or have been cut and put in specifically like that (although goodness knows how as it must have been fiddly to do if possible).
These rose canes look like those I have seen identified as Clichy rose canes, however I have found a Baccarat weight, or rather two weights, that have the white tubes with green stars in the middle that form the outer ring of the large millefiori in my weight.  The centre of the millefiori in those weights though, differs from the centre of mine.  Does anyone know if Clichy used these white with green stars in the middle please?
If I am looking in entirely the wrong area please do let me know.
many thanks
m


Offline KevinH

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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 04:11:30 PM »
Hi "m",

Sorry for delaying with this response, but I kept getting sidetracked from looking for info about weights like yours. I have now found what I was thinking about ...

2011 Annual Bulletin of the Paperweights Collectors Association, Inc.
Article by Paul Dunlop (pages 5 thru 10) titled "Who Am I? Part 2".

In the article, it is commented that the general attribution of "Bohemian" has been used for many weights of unknown manufacture, but that research has now enabled groupings to be proposed and "European Factory 8" has been used for weights with elements like yours.

There are two overall features that make me think your weight is one of those.
a) the colours and general form of the weight are very much in keeping with one shown as Figure 7 in the article
b) the distinctive central cane of your weight has colours and features that are very close to those shown in canes illustrated in the article as Figures 31, 32 & 33. This is especially true of the particular style of six-point stars set in an outer band of the complex cane.

I have not attempted to compare details of rose canes or other types.

Also, for info, there is a weight with the same style canes illustrated as "concentric 13" in the "Antique Bohemian" section of the PCC's 1999 Christies Exhibition. To locate, click here then select "Events" from the menu and "Past exhibitions" from the drop-down list. Then scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Index here" next to "1999 Christie's, London". Finally click on the link beneath "Bohemian" in the "Antique" section and then click on the weight "Concentric 13" for a larger image.

In summary, it is clear that the maker of many so-called "Bohemian" weights is still not known but that by building up groups of weights, further research may eventually be able to identify some makers (as has happened for the French makers St Mande and Grenelle).

Until then, your weight has no confirmed maker but is definitely of interest.
KevinH


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Re: Blue,white,green and touch of red scramble millefiori
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 04:53:27 PM »
Kev thank you so very much  :)  I really appreciate you and Nicholas sharing your knowledge so generously. I had found another paper on antique Bohemian weights somewhere on the net, but there were not enough photos for me to find comparison.  I would not have found this in a month of Sundays. 
The rose canes in the item 'concentric 13' are also the same as those in my weight that have the complex pink centres I believe.  The centre star in the middle of the centre cane is also the same as that found in some of canes in my weight - I feel there is little doubt it has come from a similar source, whereas every Clichy or Baccarat I looked at gave me doubts.
I will keep checking to see if there are any developments on identifying sources of the weight now. 
Thank you so much.
m

 



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