Author Topic: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?  (Read 3282 times)

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Offline KevinH

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 01:57:18 PM »
The main point is not a matter of of studying the lampwork or other main elements. It is the fact that all of the fakes have a "py" cane that is known not to be genuine.

The first batch of fakes all had what was called by collectors of the time the "dropped y cane". The second batch had a new form of py cane, but it was later confirmed that in both batches, the p and y were different colours.

As well as the details in the ysartglass.com site, my own pages (as linked to in my earlier post) set out details of what to look for. For full details of my analysis of each of the examples I have shown, see my "Notes" page, where I provide 15 summary points that can help to indicate what may be a fake py weight - but again, I must stress that the one main clue is the py cane itself, not the other features of a weight.
KevinH


Offline SophieB

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 03:19:23 PM »
Hi Nick,

A fake is an object which has been made with the intention to deceive or to defraud.  Sometimes it is difficult to prove such intention. However, in this case, the fake signature cane is clear evidence of this intent to deceive.

Actually, I am really annoyed at Boldon auctions galleries as I had sent them a message to point out that it was a fake Paul Ysart weight. Obviously, this was completely ignored. Next time, I will make sure to discuss this on the GMB so no member gets caught.

I must admit I am very surprised at the auction house's attitude. If it had been a fake painting for instance, I suspect that it would have been a different story.

Still in your position, I would be tempted to get back to them and see what they say. In my (very) humble opinion, they come close to fall foul of the Fraud Act 2006. 

SophieB
   



Offline Nick77

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 03:41:33 PM »
Thanks again, all

Sophie in all fairness I hadn't contacted the Auction house so far. I have though now just spoken to one of the auctioneers who tells me I need to speak to the boss who is away until Monday. Can you please let me know when you sent the email (exact time and date would be good if you have the details) and whether you had any reponse at all?


Offline SophieB

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 04:28:06 PM »
Hi Nick,

I am happy to forward you a copy of the message (sent on 02/06/2012 at 19.25) if you give me your email address.

Good luck with the negotiations.

SophieB


Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 04:30:36 PM »
Do these fakes not actually have their own collecting field...... ?
Cheers, Sue (M)

“All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” Friedrich Nietzsche


Offline tropdevin

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2012, 06:35:53 PM »
***
Hi Sue

I think there are Ysart collectors who like to have a fake or two, and so they are not that cheap to get! I have seen one or two make similar prices to legit examples.

Alan
Alan
The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton. Please feel free to contact me direct if you do not agree with my comments and do not wish to make your concerns known by posting in this thread.
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Offline KevinH

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2012, 10:00:12 PM »
Nick, I hope you get a fair response from the auction house.

However, their description for the item was accurate:
Quote
A paperweight with central purple flower and opaque spiral canes with alternate red stripes, bears mark PY.
They had not said it was made by Paul Ysart. Also, their images were good and the enlargements showed excellent detail, with a very clear view of the "py" cane with its differing colours for the two letters.

The estimate of £150 - £200 was perhaps a little high but does reflect the price realised for similar weights over the past two or three years.

As Sue and Alan have touched on, there is certainly a market for these weights.
KevinH


Offline chriscooper

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2012, 11:20:29 PM »
Back to the description, are we to assume then the auction house did not know it was a Paul Ysart weight? genuine or not so did not mention this in the description but went on to give a Ysart size estimate. When a simple search for PY cane would have told them. We jump on ebay sellers for such ambiguous descriptions why should auction houses be any different.
Surely if you want to sell something and achieve the best price you find out and list as much information has you can about?


Offline KevinH

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 01:33:08 AM »
I don't think it is wise to make any assumptions about what a seller knows or does not know about an item they are selling. If an inaccuracy, ambiguity, or possible omission, is seen in a description, then the seller can be contacted (as Sophie B did in respect of this weight).

Within the GMB it is true that some people have "jumped on eBay sellers". But these days, more people do, at least, contact sellers before posting messages about the sales item on the Board.

In my view, any discussions on how sellers (of any type) conduct their sales, should be kept to factual statements. Otherwise there is a danger of discussion turning into "seller bashing" or worse - and that is explicitly covered in the GMB Guidelines as being cause for moderation.
KevinH


Offline Nick77

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Re: Got a bad feeling about this, real or fake Paul Ysart?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2012, 08:50:45 AM »
Nick, I hope you get a fair response from the auction house.

However, their description for the item was accurate:They had not said it was made by Paul Ysart. Also, their images were good and the enlargements showed excellent detail, with a very clear view of the "py" cane with its differing colours for the two letters.

The estimate of £150 - £200 was perhaps a little high but does reflect the price realised for similar weights over the past two or three years.

As Sue and Alan have touched on, there is certainly a market for these weights.

To you it may be obvious to a relative newcomer like me not so. Yes I should have checked more carefully.
In reality  I only saw this shortly before the auction, the fact I remembered reading about fakes was as I mentioned before in the construction of the Y (Millers guide I think), this seemed Ok to me and I thought the quality seemed too good to be a fake so I left a bid £170 expecting that it would probably exceed that.

I have to say though that if they were unaware of it possibly being by Paul Ysart then the estimates I think would have been more in the area of £30 -£50. If they were aware that it was (or possibly was) a fake then it should have been catalogued as "After Paul Ysart" or "In the style of" as they would with a painting or doubtful provenance.

Despite not stating it was Paul Ysart but putting that estimate it certainly implied it was genuine! And of course Sophie had informed them it was fake yet they did not change the description estimate or withdraw the item.
I'll keepyou updated.

Nick

 

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