Author Topic: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?  (Read 2026 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KevinH

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 4579
    • England
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2012, 04:01:25 PM »
Current auction estimate of 300-500; dealer ticket with what looks like 645.

Maybe it's time I thought about selling my example!
KevinH


Offline glassobsessed

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 4160
  • Gender: Male
    • Mdina
    • South Wales
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2012, 06:58:47 PM »
I think it is 645 but it has been on display there for a couple of years and no takers yet.  :-X

John


Offline nigel benson

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 1084
  • Gender: Male
  • British glass 1870-1980
    • British glass 1870-1980
    • http://www.20thcentury-glass.org.uk
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2012, 05:21:46 PM »
Hello,

Just waded through this thread. Prices for these vases reach a high point arounfd the time of the Parkington sales in October '97 and April '98. Glass dealers have, in the main, never managed to achieve prices that were asked and occasionally received by non-glass dealers.

The explanation for this is likely to be related to the different clientel; collectors generally know the correct price range - others do not. It also relates similarly with decanters that have silver collars, etc., putting the item into a different type of market, ie. Objects d'art, rather than purely a collectable decanter that happens to have a bit of silver on it.

Despite Fielding's bullish estimate it would be more accurate to look in the price range 200-400 IMHO. Still good, but somewhat more realistic, especially in the current market.

The dealer who has 645.00 on the ticket and who has had it for a couple of years is quite a tryer bucking the trend like that :o ::)

As for psuedo-cameo, this was the phrase used to refer to this type of glass ware when I first entered dealing 26 years ago. It has taken all this time, despite intervenning knowledge to correct. I suggest that it came about through someone latterly using the term and it catching on with collectors and dealers, and the mistake snowballed. Actually, I don't think it really matters how it arose, rather that we now use the right terminology.

Cheers, Nigel


Offline Paul S.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 5987
  • Gender: Male
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 03:31:45 PM »
have just noticed that there is a very nice green over clear 'lily' example (of a vase), showing on page 43 in H. W. Woodward's  'Art, Feat and Mystery', first published in 1978.     Woodward gives a very brief history of Webb's acid etched work, and he seems to be saying that the factory turned to 'pseudo-cameo' (his words), in order to maintain the acid etching department, which was flagging somewhat in view of the down turn in demand for etched work in general.
During the 1930's blown work in 'tulip' and 'lily' pattern moulds were produced using hydrofluoric acid - apparently the etching department closed towards the end of the '30's - so not a long period of manufacture perhaps for these pieces.
Presumably Woodward was simply making a distinction between the dry process of real cameo and these later acid method examples, and maybe he just hit on the expression 'pseudo-cameo'.           Do we think he was the first to use this expression?


Offline KevinH

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 4579
    • England
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 10:44:03 PM »
Quote
Presumably Woodward was simply making a distinction between the dry process of real cameo and these later acid method examples, and maybe he just hit on the expression 'pseudo-cameo'. Do we think he was the first to use this expression?

The term "pseudo-cameo" was used in the American Collectible Glass - Book 4 - British Glass. My copy is a second printing 1978 but showing a copyright date of 1968. The copyright owner is stated as: Theodore C. and Viola V. Lagerberg, who, I suppose, were the authors of the book but who produced it by photographing items in Cyril Manley's collection and "working out captions" in conjunction with Manley.

So maybe Manley or the Lagerbergs, mid-60s, was / were the first to spread the term widely?
KevinH


Offline Paul S.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 5987
  • Gender: Male
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2012, 10:52:18 AM »
In fact if you read Manley (page 22 - column 2), it would seem almost as though he is speaking of an entirely different product when he uses the term 'psuedo-cameo' - he describes part of the decoration as being 'beautifully enameled', and goes on to say that he consider their origin to have been French.         His use of the term was perhaps far broader than we are speaking of here  -  which is solely in regard to the Webb's acid cut 'tulip' and lily' pieces - and it looks as though he used the term rather generally to describe all acid cut only work.
Having said that, Manley's book does include a vase in Webb's 'tulip' pseudo-cameo (in yellow) -  and he says, of the many he had seen, that they all appeared to resemble the one shown (a tulip example) - so may be he had never seen a 'lily' version.      He also comments that they were not made after 1936.

regret I don't have the Lagerberg's book - so I'll be patriotic and plump for Manley as originator ;)

       


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 7232
    • UK
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2012, 11:45:59 PM »
In fact if you read Manley (page 22 - column 2), it would seem almost as though he is speaking of an entirely different product when he uses the term 'psuedo-cameo' - he describes part of the decoration as being 'beautifully enameled', and goes on to say that he consider their origin to have been French.

Paul, I don't have the Manley book you are quoting from.  Is he talking here about Webb specifically?  or is he discussing generally about 'pseudo cameo' pieces?  because I have an acid cut one layer cameo vase that is French and the raised design that is left is enamelled on top so it looks like layered cameo but it isn't - it's one colour acid cut back with enamel on the 'raised picture' left on the vase - or at least I think it is  :-\
m


Offline Paul S.

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 5987
  • Gender: Male
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2012, 09:42:36 AM »
hello m.......from experience, it's not always easy to convey the text meaning without quoting verbatim - and for copyright reasons this is something we're not allowed to do, apparently.           I have a spare copy of Manley, and if you remind me of your address (off Board), I can post this to you and you can read his comments for yourself.      The book will cost you a fiver plus p&p  -  the down side being that whilst the contents are as new, the front board has broken away almost entirely at the front hinge, and the rear one is starting to go - something like masking tape should prevent any further deterioration.       Show it some TLC and avoid throwing it at the cat, and it should last a long time - plus it does have the dj. :)


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 7232
    • UK
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2012, 09:55:28 AM »
thanks :) I will email you. 
m


Offline nigel benson

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 1084
  • Gender: Male
  • British glass 1870-1980
    • British glass 1870-1980
    • http://www.20thcentury-glass.org.uk
Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2012, 11:06:06 AM »
I have quoted directly from books on these boards over the years.

As far as I'm aware when quoting from a book (as long as it's not a huge section) all is OK provided you quote the title, author, publisher, and date.

Nigel

PS. m, bear in mind Manley's tendancy to make assumptions, and the later disproving of some of his thoughts and attributions when reading the book. It's good, but probably now best used as a pointer. N.

 



This Website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand