Author Topic: Kralik version of Loetz Texas? or something else? Red iridescent textured vase  (Read 3592 times)

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Offline obscurities

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See.... It is true!!!  Great minds DO think alike!!   ;D ;D

Craig
I have been told that glass is my mistress......


Offline glassobsessed

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Did much glass travelled east over the Atlantic?

John


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I don't think so to be honest.  It's interesting though that pieces have turned up in the States and here.  I suppose they could have all been bought from the UK on ebay and made their way over to the States that way.  Otherwise, they seem to have been supplied to both side of the pond which wouldn't be unusual I don't think.
But I have not been able to match the different shapes to any known (so far) Kralik shapes.  I think that's slightly odd.

So possibly an unknown maker so far?  or could they be a 'new' er  maker - i.e. not from that period but later?
Mine is very nicely made, polished and bevelled on the outside rim etc, but comparitively little wear on the base.
 
m


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with reference my comment further up on this thread
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48607.msg307092.html#msg307092 
regarding  the vase in Band IV Das Bohmische Glas page224 having a similar decor (amber with dark red flags/splashes) as the vase Craig showed here
 
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48607.0;attach=139101;image
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48607.msg307083.html#msg307083

Craig I just came across this post (see link below) on Collectors Weekly, where a vase exactly the  same shape as the vase that is in Band VI page 224 (i.e. the one that appear to have  the same decor and is the same colours as the image I last linked to above)  has been identified as by Steigerwald ??

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/78163-german-jugendstil-steigerwald-schliers

I couldn't see any reference source links on the CW thread for it being Steigerwald though but did find this article (see link below) where that vase is on the page.  Unfortunately the reference about it says it is Schliersee

'SCHLIERSEE
Only two pieces in my collection, both identified from my visit to the Passau Museum.  The vase below appears as "unidentified" in Band IV, but it is similar to vases in the Schliersee case (look at V. page 16 and V. 55):'

https://sites.google.com/site/loetzandglass/bavarian-jugendstil-glass

It seems that reference to it being Schliersee has been changed to it being Steigerwald on the CW posting. I don't have the Band V so I can't see what is meant by '...but it is similar to vases in the Schliersee case' - i.e. how similar?

Does anyone have any Steigerwald primary source references for this decor or shape please?

Oh and these http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/101836-antique-bohemian-welz-iridescent-maze?in=442 the same pair? I think as the image you showed above,  have been id'd as Welz. 

Where does Steigerwald fit into this I'm wondering? Is the one in the book  perhaps a different decor to the one you posted?
It is very hard to tell from the pics even in the book, but it looks incredibly similar to me including the colours used.  The book vase doesn't have a maze pattern on it though as far as I can see.
Many thanks
m


Offline obscurities

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M,

I did some additional research the other day, looking at other production examples in quite similar forms and have come to the conclusion that the pair above that I showed are Welz production. The only other pieces I have seen in the same shape are both decors I have identified as Welz. I also have a record of an additional example, which is the same shape and size with a different rim treatment, but the body and neck are identical to the other Welz examples. That example is in a decor of Green & White Honeycomb which is distinctly (at least until now) a Welz decor. Lastly I came across in my photo archives and example with the same body style, but a slightly different neck transition that is also in a distinctly Welz decor.

As a result, I have concluded, since every example of this shape, or extremely similar examples of the shape are, in my opinion Welz decors, that the pair shown above with the sellers image use permission, and the pair posted on CW are Welz examples. I would also note that the decor appears both with and without the Maze surface texture.

The surface texture, which I refer to as Maze, is also a decor I have started combing through my archives to identify examples of. Thus far I have located what I would consider to be 3 similar, but definitely different examples, supporting what I suspect, and that is that the decor was done by several houses in slightly different forms.

I am not aware of any direct link to Steigerwald for the vase in the CW post, and the same Unknown Production example in DBG IV pg 224. I think the link is confused, and the poster is of the opinion that the decor in DBG V examples and the DBG IV example are the same. I would disagree with that observation for the reasons described below.

The examples shown in DBG V pg 16 & v55 are a similar decor but in my opinion not the same. Without showing the images in DBG V here I will at least try to explain the differences I note. 

The DBG V examples appear, and it could be lighting, to be a slightly lighter ground with overall lighter color. I have seen the decor shown in the small pair, which I have now ID'd as Welz, in several forms and it is generally a richer looking glass than the DBG V examples identified as Schliersee. Additionally the colors splotches (primarily the burgundy ones) in the Schliersee decor are seen in both examples as smeared or run color. These burgundy splotches also transition slowly from burgundy to the ground, which appears to be a deep Candia. This appears in both the neck and body of the vessels as a result of the blowing and manipulation of the gather.

In looking at the examples on CW, and other examples of the decor I have images of and have seen, the body of the examples with the burgundy splotches in the decor have a different appearance. They look like torn pieces of color in irregular patterns with much more definitive edges appearing where they merge with the ground color. It is more difficult to see in the small images of the pair, but I believe the same characteristic can be seen in those examples also. I also believe that this decor was likely produced in some slightly varying ground colors.

The difference I have described above is also visible in the example in DBG IV pg 224 identified as Unknown Production. In that example the "torn flags" of color can be seen all the way to the edge of the rim. This is also mildly similar to a very unique decor produced  interwar by Welz in a kind of Yellow/Chartreuse and Burgundy decor. (examples below)

The first two images below show similar "torn flags" (for lack of a better term) of burgundy in the decor. The third image below is of two examples quite similar in shape to the pair I posted and in distinctly Welz decors. I would also note that I have never seen these shapes in any decors other than those I believe to be Welz, and the shape is not very common at all.

So, the decor on the pair, and the decor in DBG IV pg 224, I believe are the same decor and by Welz.  I do not believe them to be the same decor as seen in DBG V pg 16 & V55. I believe that to be a different decor, and would have no reason to disagree with Passau on a Schliersee attribution .

The Maze, or Brain decor is, I believe, a decor to be found in several variants from different houses.

I hope this is clear....
I will email you images of the two cited examples in DBG V for your comparison.

Craig
I have been told that glass is my mistress......


Offline flying free

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thanks I understood that clearly :)
ok, so.... in conclusion as I understand it, the one id'd on Collectors Weekly as Steigerwald (see link) could possibly be a Welz vase, because it is an identical shape to the one in Band IV which has a decor and colours that appear to match the pair of vases id'd as Welz?
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/78163-german-jugendstil-steigerwald-schliers

no clearer on mine just yet though -
m


Offline obscurities

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Yes, and the DBG image is better, showing consistent color through the decor, unlike the image on CW which appears to substantially wash out the lower portion of the vase.

This decor has been discussed for quite some time previously with nothing solid pointing in any specific direction until the small Welz shape pair were found.

And yes.... we are not really any closer on your vase, or any of the others in that style of decor, with the exception that I believe that Welz was one of the houses that produced one of the variants of the "Maze" decor.

The individual that purchased the Welz pair and posted with original sellers images on CW said they will take better images and send them to me for use when the vases arrive.

Craig

I have been told that glass is my mistress......


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ok, I have the pictures you sent.  I'm leaning towards that they are different (the one in band V is not the same decor as the one in Band IV) although it's very very difficult to tell absolutely from book shots but I can 'see' the differences you 'see'.
I also have to wonder why Passau would have classified the one in Band IV as unknown, and then put the one in Band V as known without referencing the one in Band IV?  Therefore I presume they also see differences between the two in person since they have the vases there? Surely if they were the same decor they would have put them together.
m


Offline obscurities

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I agree...  To me they are completely different decors with some striking differences.

The two references in Band V appear the same, although the single ewer style example (pg 16) has enamel work. I did not translate the text to see if they attribute the enamel work to Schliersee also.

Craig
I have been told that glass is my mistress......


 



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