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Author Topic: lead crystal table lamp  (Read 338 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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lead crystal table lamp
« on: August 05, 2012, 04:11:42 PM »
I have looked all over hoping for a Walsh mark, but as yet unable to see a mark of any description  -  and just to share really, since I thought it looked great now it's cleaned up.
Had the original 1940's - 50's rubberised flex, so need to replace and will have to provide earth connection before using, but apart from a few small nibbles on the shade it's in very good condition, and rings like a bell when flicked.          Stands nearly 16" - 400mm tall.
If anyone has any thoughts they'd like to share, fire away, and thanks for looking. :)


Offline misha

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Re: lead crystal table lamp
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 01:10:34 AM »
I have looked all over hoping for a Walsh mark, but as yet unable to see a mark of any description  -  and just to share really, since I thought it looked great now it's cleaned up.
Had the original 1940's - 50's rubberised flex, so need to replace and will have to provide earth connection before using, but apart from a few small nibbles on the shade it's in very good condition, and rings like a bell when flicked.          Stands nearly 16" - 400mm tall.
If anyone has any thoughts they'd like to share, fire away, and thanks for looking. :)

Nice looking piece. I saw a couple of similar lamps on the weekend on a drive outside the metro area on the weekend. They were more squat in form.

On the 'electrical' aspect, getting rid of the VIR [Vitrified Indian Rubber] cable is a must, but the need for an Earth isn't if there are no exposed metallic parts which are connected to the lamp holder assembly that is wired.  If the whole thing was a metal frame that held glass [or plastic] elements, then I would err on the side of caution. 

I'd be more concerned about the integrity of the actual lamp holder, an electrical connector of sorts, and any switch mechanism in that.  Old style metallic shell lamp holders were very dodgy by today's standards.
I've seen the older types using what looks like no more than a cardboard internally for insulation... twist switches being only single pole and far from positive spring switch break action. 

Seek out some nice silk woven cable for this piece, chances are you only need two core cable. It comes in a variety of colours and construction [2C & 3C] Might cost around $9 per meter, which I thought expensive as one eBay seller wants for it.

One other point on 'enclosed'  fittings. If heat can't escape a totally enclosed fitting, modern CFL [compact fluorescent] lamps can suffer early failure. it cooks the electronic controls in the base and the most common cause for early lamp failure. 
If you use any type of halogen lamp, which produce high temp and heaps of it, there is also risk of cooking lamp holder assembles and connecting cables. Halogen may look good with a bright white light output in such fittings, but they produce more heat energy than they do visible light energy.


Offline misha

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Re: lead crystal table lamp
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 02:34:11 AM »
Perhaps post an image of the electrical bits and any metallic components attached and I can advise whats needed.

An example of something needing serious inspection/testing and indeed Earthing at various locations would be this light fitting recently appearing on eBay.au

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=280929508698&si=8bDzIUt01QEYGQoSD3ITSvNR5Nc%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBUAA%3AAU%3A3160&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

a) It appears single insulated cable has been used in wiring this fitting [red cable apparent in pic of base] , due to limitation of the tube to accommodate two double insulated cables in the loop connect both arms...
b) the lampholders have an Earth connection [the  connectors with a screw on outside of the fitting, not real pretty]...
c) the cable used is two core only - NOT Earthed...
d) the base is not Earthed. I wouldn't trust Earthing at lampholders to be low resistance to base where chance of abrasion wear is higher.
e) due to the age of lampholder components, there is the chance of dodgy springs at connection to lamp and accordingly burnout failure due to poor connections.
f) If that uses 'Edison Screw' [ES] type lamps, the outer screw portion is a conductor and so, potentially 'Active' if a plug or socket has been incorrectly wired. This is where thin insulation between the screw and an outer metal jacket usually installed appears. If 'old', I'd seriously question the integrity of said 'insulation'.  The 'risk' is less with 'Bayonet Cap' [BC] holders due to the outer holder not being a conductor... the lamp has two insulated connectors on the base, not a single central connector.

Poor ES lampholder insulation + incorrect wiring of plug or socket + NO Earth = electrocution risk.   

So, thats a poor case really needing proper Earthing.
The only way to avoid that need would be to convert the fitting to 'Extra Low Voltage'  ie. 12V , having a remote in-line transformer to power from house supply... 110V or 240V AC.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: lead crystal table lamp
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 01:50:55 PM »
thanks for the information Misha.          Just to clarify some details re this piece, and can confirm colour of rubberized insulation sleeves are plain green and plain red, and covered in fairly standard first half C20 woven fabric.       Green rubber  is without any wording, but printed in black along the red sleeve is.........(something) /M  INSULATION  -  TO BRITISH STANDARDS  -  MADE IN GREAT BRITAIN  -  (then in black box) what might be BICC (then something else illegible).                Whether this provides enough information to date the lamp I'm not sure.
As you can see, the dome support arms are chromed as is the lower half of the bulb holder, although upper half (bayonet fitting) is simply a silver coloured metal.
Two core flex (live and neutral only) enters at base of pedesal via small arched cut-away in the glass and passes up the centre and through the bulb holder for internal attachment in body of standard bayonet fitting - hole is quite small.                   The bulb holder arrangement is without any facility (screw method as shown in your link) for attaching an earth wire.           Obviously, the original intention was that the on/off switch was situated external to the lamp  -  unlike many appliances of this sort, where the small push/push plastic rod was built into the bulb holder.              From what I can see, modern bayonet fitting lamp bulb holders appear to be plastic throughout.
Not much space up the centre of the bulb holder, but might be enough to accommodate thinnish three core flex  -  but that said, where do I attach the earch.              Perhaps there's no need for an earth, provided the on/off switch is placed away from the lamp, meaning no need to actually touch any part of the lamp. 


Offline flying free

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Re: lead crystal table lamp
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 04:48:48 PM »
is it Walsh Paul?  It doesn't look the same as the ones on page 36 of Eric Reynolds book, but it does have similarities in shape especially with the version on the left.
m


Offline Paul S.

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Re: lead crystal table lamp
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 05:41:21 PM »
hello m  -  probably not making myself clear - I wasn't suggesting it was Walsh, just that I'd hoped to find a Walsh backstamp, since I'm rather keen on that factory, and I'm not 'au fait' with any other makers of such pieces.         Frankly, I haven't a clue who might have made this one  -  I dare say this was a general shape produced by several companies.          I did look in Reynolds, although wasn't aware of seeing it - but haven't yet had the courage to wade through the factory patterns at the back of the book.              Having said that, your comments have prompted me to look again in the book, and for what it's worth I notice that the left hand example in fig. 106 (top of page 36), does have some similarity with this one.    The shades have the same profile  -  the pedestal is truncated, and the chrome fittings appear to be identical............so what do you think. ;)

P.S.     Well done the Brit. cyclists - again.......where would the Olympics be without them eh, jp.


Offline misha

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Re: lead crystal table lamp
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 01:39:14 PM »
thanks for the information Misha.          Just to clarify some details re this piece,

No problem... it just stood out as being a 'maybe not' or 'yes, wise move'.
It happens to be the latter.

So...

thanks for the information Misha.          Just to clarify some details re this piece, and can confirm colour of rubberized insulation sleeves are plain green and plain red, and covered in fairly standard first half C20 woven fabric.       Green rubber  is without any wording, but printed in black along the red sleeve is.........(something) /M  INSULATION  -  TO BRITISH STANDARDS  -  MADE IN GREAT BRITAIN  -  (then in black box) what might be BICC (then something else illegible).                Whether this provides enough information to date the lamp I'm not sure. 
Well, may have been to a Standard... but now it is not.
Rubber is suspect on anything old, especially if heat is involved. The lamp is a heater, unfortunately.
Green insulation is OK for Earth and nothing else. Likewise, yellow is another colour reserved for Earth.
Modern Earth conductor is a Green/Yellow, which is why the yellow is limited use at that 110/240V potential.
I'm currently rewiring this home where main cables are rubber insulated and a similar marking on the red and black insulation.  I'd hazard a guess some of the code relates to rated voltage and stranding construction.  The cables here date from the early 1950's... fixed wiring type though. I've rewired homes with older type cable from the 1920's. they had rubber and textile outer.... much of which was in very poor condition.

As you can see, the dome support arms are chromed as is the lower half of the bulb holder, although upper half (bayonet fitting) is simply a silver coloured metal.


As such it requires Earth, unless converted to operate at 'Extra Low Voltage' as you would power LED type lamps designed for 12V.

The bulb holder arrangement is without any facility (screw method as shown in your link) for attaching an earth wire.           Obviously, the original intention was that the on/off switch was situated external to the lamp  - 
From what I can see, modern bayonet fitting lamp bulb holders appear to be plastic throughout.

Small hole.... perhaps enlarge and debur any such drilling work.

No means of connection.... modern light fittings use a large diameter lug fitted where threaded tube fittings mechanically assemble the fitting... granted, these are located within wiring chambers in multi-lamp arrangements. perhaps there is an option of making a solder type connection within the lampholder or at the place this holder screw clamps to the glass base.

Yes, modern are all plastic and so, no need for Earth - double insulated.

Smaller cables are available for that tight entry. They are smaller by virtue of higher grade insulation, not smaller conductor. They are often PTFE with glass brade over insulation, and used in halogen lamp connectors, due to higher heat tolerance. You also see smaller cable of aesthetic value used in crystal chandelier internal wiring. Such cable would need to be joined with the plastic/textile lead though.

Perhaps there's no need for an earth, provided the on/off switch is placed away from the lamp, meaning no need to actually touch any part of the lamp. 

See, the lamp could develop an Active [live] to frame fault that looks like a blown lamp... it could be 'on' when a lamp change is attempted.    Likewise, an Active to frame fault could develop that doesn't take out the light but still energises the frame.  Incidental contact to support arms being Live. 

This is going to take a fair bit of fiddly work to Earth proper, and unfortunately an in line cord switch doesn't negate the need to Earth it... only Low Voltage conversion will negate that need, or more to the point hazard risk.

Good luck with it though.
Lovely big piece... I'm a sucker for the light play that comes from the  prismatic diffusion effect of good crystal glass.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: lead crystal table lamp
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 04:56:44 PM »
thanks again Misha for all your advice etc.            I will think along the lines of a smaller diameter three core cable, combined with soldering the earth wire to the lamp holder, and see if that provides the necessary safety conditions.       If I do get the thing up and going will add a pic to this thread for you to see.


 

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