Topic: Monart piece signed and dated

[chopin-liszt]

Thanks for the extra images, Gary.
T'other Gary, I think Nigel and I are with you on this one.

[flying free]

What happened to the Monart glass factory in 1927? The only reference I could find on a quick look was it seemed to be that was when the gas supply was changed. Or maybe it commemorates one of their birthdays?
m

[Gary]

sorry but i think it disgusting,  ,  i also dont even think that it is Monart, maybe it is but doesnt look like Monart to me, just something not right about it, the adventurine ect doesnt look like Monart but thats just my tuppence worth, i seen it a month back and alarm bells were ringing

Gary when you saw it a month ago did you handle it or get any provenance on the piece.
Gary

[millarart]

Gary when you saw it a month ago did you handle it or get any provenance on the piece.
Gary

sorry i never made myself clear, i meant i saw this piece on line when it first came on,

[Gary]

The image below is from Moncrieff Glassworks company records, it shows Salvador's, Paul and Augustine personal signatures.
I do not claim to be an expert on calligraphy, but there is to my eyes there is a clear likeness between Salvador's signature and the Ysart piping on the vase.
The similarity that I see
1/ the way the "Y" loops at the top and bottom of the "Y"
2/ The space between "s" and "a"
3/ The "r" and "t" look very similar.
This no way confirms it as Salvador signature as it would take someone with knowledge of calligraphy to work that out.
I have emailed Bonhams asking if they can pass on any provenance the have on the piece.
Gary

[nigel benson]

Well Gary, I take on board your caveats, but agree with your observations. Nice piece of work

Nigel

[flying free]

I'd say there is a definite similarity. 
I also think the apparent 'Y' of Salvador and Paul's signature looks to me like an old fashioned cursive capital I 
m

[Gary]

I'd say there is a definite similarity. 
I also think the apparent 'Y' of Salvador and Paul's signature looks to me like an old fashioned cursive capital I 
m

That is a very interesting point you make about the capital I as the name and spelling of Ysart was adopted when the came to Scotland. Their correct Spanish name was Isart.
Gary

[flying free]

http://genealogy.about.com/od/paleography/ig/old_handwriting/Kurrent.htm
I believe it is the old way of writing a capital I (see above).
Having now found the chronology on Ysart Glass, Paul would have been 11 and Salvador obviously adult when they came here... therefore presumably Paul's use of his name Isart and way of writing it  was already established, whereas Augustin was only 8 when they came here so may have easily adopted the new spelling,  hence the way they are written in the documentation you show.   With regard the cup I also think it's spelt with a capital I on the cup as well.  Given they were known as 'Y'sart, presumably there are only two people who would have made that cup and spelt it that way with an 'I', i.e. Salvador or Paul? and as you point out there are also other obvious similarities with Salvador's signature.
m

[Gary]

http://genealogy.about.com/od/paleography/ig/old_handwriting/Kurrent.htm
I believe it is the old way of writing a capital I (see above).
Having now found the chronology on Ysart Glass, Paul would have been 11 and Salvador obviously adult when they came here... therefore presumably Paul's use of his name Isart and way of writing it  was already established, whereas Augustin was only 8 when they came here so may have easily adopted the new spelling,  hence the way they are written in the documentation you show.   With regard the cup I also think it's spelt with a capital I on the cup as well.  Given they were known as 'Y'sart, presumably there are only two people who would have made that cup and spelt it that way with an 'I', i.e. Salvador or Paul? and as you point out there are also other obvious similarities with Salvador's signature.
m

Totally agree with your observations, when I was at the library I only had my camera phone and only took 5 photos of the ledger, one of the other images is of Vincent signature and is surname is a definite Y. I do intend to return to do some more research and will check how Antoine spelt his surname.
Gary