Author Topic: Spirit measures - cut, pressed, pub, Scottish, 1/4 gill  (Read 1460 times)

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 04:55:28 PM »
There is a very good little paperback by Brian Brooks , 'Whisky Dispensers & Measures ' published by B Brooks 2000 ISBN 0-9539098-0-8, lots of illustrations and info on these measures.

cheers ,
                Peter.

 


Offline Paul S.

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 05:06:27 PM »
thanks Keith.        I'm really not sure now of the meaning of the number 35  -  does this imply the first time the capacity was verified by the weights and measures people - and if so I would have thought it might carry GR rather than ER.       The type of  script makes me think certainly pre 1940, but that's only  guess.

Thanks for the information Peter  -  another book to get then :)        As mentioned, I don't find myself knee deep in these things, and can only assume they have stayed within the brewing/pub industry and don't normally find their way out into the public domain  -  although like all things I dare say they can be sourced from more specialist suppliers.   No doubt my above question is answered in the book you mention.


Offline oldglassman

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 05:18:36 PM »
the numbers are related to the cities were the measures were verified and then stamped on the seals, 34 or 36 for Glasgow 3 for Edinburgh and 324 for south Shields ,sorry don't know were 35 was . E R is for 1901-1910  V R 1879-1901 G R 1911-1920
  all in the little booklet by B Brooks.

cheers ,
              Peter.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 06:35:25 PM »
thanks for the part explanation Peter - Edward Royal it is then, on the basis that his reign spanned those ten years, which would also fit in with the style of script on my example.
Will certainly get the book.


Offline keith

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 07:08:08 PM »
Might be an idea if I got a copy  ;D ;D


Offline Paul S.

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2012, 05:03:53 PM »
having bought this one, I realized I'd seen another in recent days, so went back to the shop, and now have two.
This second example is a tad shorter at 3.5" - is unmarked and without any 'level' line, but is similar in general outline shape which is often described as a 'stopperless decanter-shaped spirit measure', and again there is a ground/polished pontil depression - pix are attached of this second example.

Quite by coincidence I was looking through Andy McConnell's book 'The Decanter' earlier today, and saw that there is a line drawing on page 447, of a measure which looks very similar to this new one - and which is described as a 'pillar whisky' measure, the smallest of which is given as a 'nip or 1/4 gill' (which is what the capacity of this one appears to be).   
This is one of three line drawings, all of which are 'spirit measures from Holyrood pattern book 4, c. 1865'.        I'm assuming that since legislation of the Weights and Measures Act - requiring legal standard capacities to be shown by a line on the glass - didn't come in until 1878, then this second 'pillar' measure may well date to somewhere between 1865 and 1878.    I wonder how many drinkers were short changed by these unregulated measures?         There is the most basic of decoration around the rim, consisting of six very irregularly spaced cuts made by a small wheel.

I know little about the Scottish factories, but having looked in the books there is every chance that this refers to the Holyrood Glass Works which was in the Edinburgh area and owned for most of the C19 by the Ford family  -  although the factory closed very early in the C20, apparently, with a lot of the Ford workers joining E. & L. Flint Glass Works.    Perhaps someone might care to comment as to whether this sounds the same 'Holyrood' as mentioned in the book.

Coming back to the Richardson's Patent spirit measure, which was the original subject of this thread, very pleased to say that Andy McConnell's book provides some information for this one too.
A method of marking the level (on the glass) with a lead seal was patented in 1869 by W. H. Richardson (prior to the legal requirement of the Act it seems?) - son of the Stourbridge maker, whilst manager of James Couper & Sons' Glasgow Glassworks.        This does add some more information about the Richardson example and indicates a date of somewhere after 1869, probably  -  might Stourbridge be the '35 district'??

References:       'The Decanter - An Illustrated History of Glass from 1650'  -  Andy McConnell - 2004.
                        'The Story of Edinburgh Crystal'   -  H. W. Woodward  -  1984.

Hope this hasn't bored everyone too much :)


Offline chriscooper

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 06:12:32 PM »
Hi Paul, used to sell pewter tankards  many moons ago found a box full in the cellar of a pub that was being knocked down used a site like this for the verification marks. Glasgow had 3 verification  marks 34,35,36,

http://www.antique-metalware.co.uk/verification.html

Chris


Offline Paul S.

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 06:58:09 PM »
thanks Chris  -  without Peter's earlier comments about Glasgow, I would have suggested that city might have been verification mark 35 in view of the reference to James Couper, Glasgow.    Anyway good to have a result, and thanks again.

My comment about .............."the Richardson example and indicates a date of somewhere after 1869, probably".........was a bit thick, since Peter had already explained that the ER puts it into the 1901 - 1910 period :-[

I've a sneaky feeling that Anne may have given me that link some time back - I seem to have bookmarks all over the place - and some earlier ones I now can't access. 


Offline Paul S.

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 07:30:32 PM »
Keith  -  I'd forget the book for the time being..............can't see one on Abe Books, and the only one on Amazon is 25 plus postage of 2.80!!        I know I pay some big money for good hardbacks but this seems a bit steep for a second hand paperback. :o

P.S.   Note to Mods.      might we consider changing the title of this thread to aid future searches, please :)


Offline Anne

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Re: another quiz (hopefully)
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 08:59:46 PM »
Sure we can, would someone like to suggest a suitable title please? Am too pooped to read it all through at the moment.

 

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