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Author Topic: Bristol blue rummers....georgian victorian or later.....?  (Read 867 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Bristol blue rummers....georgian victorian or later.....?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 02:01:44 PM »
from the pix, I think we can discount a folded foot on these :)      It is probably also a truism that the older the glass the more likely it is to sit on the very outside of the foot (domed feet were a consequence of the early snapped pontils).      Feet had started to become flatter towards the end of the C18 due to the removal by grinding, of the rough pontil mark, and they became flatter still as you progress through the C19.      I've also seen several comments - when referring to blue glasses that C18 material should be quite heavy and thick.
Don't think that period glasses of these type and colour could be earlier than 1800 - 1820 in any event.

In view of Nigel's comments elsewhere today, I'll take a chance and quote from Miller's Glass Antiques Checklist (consultant Mark West).        Again, with particular regard to blue glass, it is stated that.........
"Blue drinking glasses should be treated with caution  as a large number of these were made during the first half of the 20thC.      Generally these glasses are larger than the older ones, have unusual shapes, and a very thin metal (glass body).      They do, however, have snapped-off pontils which can be confusing"
copyright 1994 Reed International Books Limited.             I'd suggest this as a useful and reasonably easy quick reference book.

Coming back to the formation and shape of the foot - the wider the better is probably a good maxim  -  early C19 hand made feet were less delicate, slightly thicker on the edge and quite likely not truly circular ) good description of the process in Wilkinson).        The alternative - the blown foot - should produce a much sharper edge due to the curvature of the top of the foot coming down to meet the flat of the underside (Skelcher goes into all three types of feet  -  hand made and mould blown).
The moulded foot shows a much neater and symentrically rounded profile of the edge.

I wonder if these are in fact early C20, and from a factory like Hill Ouston for example  -  none of which lessens their interest, I'd certainly like to own them :)


Offline oldglassman

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Re: Bristol blue rummers....georgian victorian or later.....?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 02:13:01 PM »
HI ,
            Yes I have been lurking ,for the reason that it seems  I have recently always been the bearer of bad news so was waiting to see what else was said ,

Anyway my opinion of these ,which would seem to be that of most people I know is that at best these types are late 19thc and probably even 20th century,examples by webb and S&W are known, they are of course made in an earlier style with snapped pontils folded feet etc but this only shows that they are hand made not necessarily 18th c ,18th cobalt blue glasses are very few and far between and I have certainly never seen a rummer that was considered to be a Georgian example , even late Georgian , the thoughts are that these rummer type glasses were made in many places including England ,Continental Europe and America in the very 19th and 20th centuries,

I have attached a couple of photos of examples I have, both of which have many characteristics of 18thc glasses , the goblet is 10 is tall a hollow stem and folded foot , very late 19thc at best i think , the open flame lamp I think shows a similar attachment to the bowl at the top of the stem ,this I am told by a friend is almost certainly an American oil lamp from the late 19th century , it has wear on the foot that would suggest 300 years of use !!!

there we go , you did ask !!!

cheers ,
             Peter.

 just noticed the crossed posts Paul ,looks like we got there .


Offline bigbri

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Re: Bristol blue rummers....georgian victorian or later.....?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 04:28:49 PM »
Hello both.
Thanks for the reply its been very interesting,and in my opinion no knowledge is bad news either positive or negative its all good.........further to your thoughts the glass is thick and very heavy and the base wear is to the edge but as stated that might just be to the construction of the foot.
What about the shape.i cannot find it anywhere on any blue rummer from any period........do you have a thread or a lead I could follow up on this or any info on which of the 20 th century factories made this shape I would of though there catalogues would have the shapes as said I can't find any and there must be duplicates out there ESP if they are by s/w or webb or similar.
Happy hunting.



Offline Paul S.

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Re: Bristol blue rummers....georgian victorian or later.....?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 07:53:19 PM »
regret to say that like most people who collect drinking glasses you are destined to always have a few which will remain of doubtful origin and/or date.      Those who collect C20 signed studio glass don't know how lucky they are - but then they miss out on all the wonderful history. ;)
Don't know which books you have, but I notice that in Hajdamach's 'British Glass 1800 - 1914 - under reproductions etc. - there is an example of a wineglass which might represent a typical source from which your rummers had originated.     Admittedly the colour is amethyst (all the more desirable - they didn't go in for half measures, so it appeals to the greed in all of us ;)) but the shape is very close, and the caption says.........
"wineglass made by L. & S. Hingley, Wordsley, early C20, height 4.7/8" - rough pontil mark and capstan shape stem etc."
Obviously copying an early C19 glass, and doubtless would confuse most people, unless the lack of wear and excessively rare bowl shape rang alarm bells.             If it looks too good to be true - it probably is.
Around 1900 Richardsons were offering very accurate copies of George III cut glass patterns - although I don't know if their efforts extended to drinking glasses.
Hill Ouston appear to have been copying just about everything from air twist spiral drawn stems and cordials of the 1740's to thumb cut ales of the 1860's.
All of which is a good reason to buy books and try to handle as much material as possible, and when buying remember all the golden rules, colour, foot/rim proportions, wear, stones/bubbles, weight etc.

Very unlikely you'll be able to attribute a maker to yours - might have been one of a number of sources - Continental perhaps - attached is another blue rummer - snapped pontil etc., some good signs of wear, shape typical of early C19 and rings like you wouldn't believe - but as to origin I've no idea, and a reproduction I suspect.?       But the searching is always good fun. :)

I'd recommend both of the Hajdamach volumes if you don't already have them - plus Bickerton for C18/Regency drinking glasses.


Offline bigbri

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Re: Bristol blue rummers....georgian victorian or later.....?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2012, 10:01:53 PM »
hi again.
i will look into those books as i love books and knowledge.i have hundreds of books and you have to stop somewhere but the where is the question ;)
my glasses are then a mystery but i still have my doubts they are 20th century but i do bow to yours and the old glass mans knowledge its certainly greater than mine in the field but something tells me they are earlier prob due to the source of them and the dealer instinct but they are still very nice items and as of yet no one has managed to show me a similar shape one in any colour,yours is similar but no double knopped stem and the bowl is different but i will keep hunting.
if your up in the lakes give me a buzz you can come and feel them for yourself.
thanks greatly for your time and your sharing.
happy hunting :)


Offline Paul S.

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Re: Bristol blue rummers....georgian victorian or later.....?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 10:11:32 PM »
many thanks for your friendly and generous offer  -  am sure you will enjoy the books :)


 

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