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Author Topic: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim  (Read 3526 times)

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Offline flying free

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c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« on: October 28, 2012, 11:04:51 PM »
I'm not entirely sure where my thoughts lie on this.   The handle and the way it is applied, seem to me to indicate c1840-1850? ( but I could be wrong  :-\ and the handle may not indicate age and may just be a design device) from what I can see in my searches, along with the opaline and the red trailed rim. 
The way the rim is pinched is distinctive, with the profile curving down to the spout and with the flat upright back. 
The way the handle is applied on the interior of the rim is quite unusual as far as I can see. It has a thumb dent at the top.
The opaline is absolutely luminous, beautiful.  It is a high quality piece with a polished pontil mark (standard sized, not particularly small as my Clichy one is for example).

My instinct says French.  My searching brings up a jug (different decor but on opaline glass) that appears to have a similarly applied handle and shaped rim and with a rim that curves down at the front spout, that is attributed as probably Baccarat - it has a hand enamelled mark on the base 'P and then a number'.  Is that a French way of marking or is it maybe just the enamellers mark not specific to any country.(see link)

However searching Richardson, shows more jugs with similar handles and rims (see links below) and particularly one (the red one - id'd as probably Richardson) which appears to have the similar dipped spout but not the interior applied handle, and I do wonder whether the vase I link to first could be Richardson but perhaps the mark says not?

this one is marked Richardson http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/gilt-and-enamelled-green-ground-jug-ca-1847-50/
this last one doesn't have the rim but seems to have the interior applied handle http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH966/

I found one opaline basket that has some similarities attributed as Baccarat probably here (6th item down from top)

I have not been able to find any opaline jugs other than these that are similar and none that are French although I still feel it may be French.  I can't find anything in my book sources (limited access to the Clichy book but no jugs that have handles anything like this).

Any thoughts very much appreciated.
Thanks for looking

Offline flying free

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 11:28:30 PM »
few more pics

Offline Ivo

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 06:05:12 AM »
Nice find. It may actually be from Bohemia circa 1840. I have a tiny milk jug with the same trim which I managed to id that by hand of a czech calendar (Historické Sklo 1979) which illustrates a bell
glass bell "Isabell", fit with guilded silver. The Krkonose Mountains, Novy Svet, about 1840

Isabel is an off white slightly yellowish - so not milk glass. And the mountains are now known as the Giant Mountains.

Offline pamela

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2012, 08:51:22 AM »
Instantly I remembered Christine's Lötz set
 I don't say, yours is Lötz, but the quality and whiteness seem similar ?
Die Erfahrung lehrt, dass, wer auf irgendeinem Gebiet zu sammeln anfängt, eine Wandlung in seiner Seele anheben spürt. Er wird ein freudiger Mensch, den eine tiefere Teilnahme erfüllt, und ein offeneres Verständnis für die Dinge dieser Welt bewegt seine Seele.
Experience teaches that anyone who begins to collect in any field can feel a change in his soul. He becomes a joyful man filled with a deeper empathy, and a more open understanding moves his soul.
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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2012, 09:18:41 AM »
My Loetz is a more translucent white I think.

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 10:11:48 AM »
Maybe it's the picture? Because my immediate gut thoughts were of your Loetz Chicken set, as were Pamela's!
Cheers, Sue (M)

“Empirical evidence on expert opinion shows that it is extremely unreliable”
Ioannidis, (2005), Plos Medicine.


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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 01:14:11 PM »
M, just looking at your pics and the last one with the grouping - is that an epergne base or tazza in the background? also French? perhaps?

only asking as I have one and can only vaguely label as french, second opinion would be great  :)


Offline flying free

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 10:07:35 PM »
thank you all for your observations and help and lovely comments :)

Mel, I'll find a link to the 'epergne stand' in a minute -
Pamela, Sue, it definitely has the quality of a Loetz piece, and thanks for your nice words.  My thoughts are that it is not as translucent as Christine's pieces, and if I'm honest Loetz didn't even come to mind when I saw it -  it isn't somehow the same as'tango' glass and I can't explain why it isn't, also the rim and the way the handle is applied all say mid 19th c to me...I did think possibly 1830/40s but am now wondering if it might be a bit later (Obviously I could prove to be wrong on all my thoughts  ;D - and Loetz would be nice! but..)

Ivo, your little jug is very beautiful and thank you for another lead to search :)   The opaline looks very yellow on your jug and my  jug is definitely white and very clear, clean, translucent opaline glass, but your Bohemian thought lead me on to other observations (see below).
OK, so my thoughts are these now -
I did originally consider Bohemian for the jug but ignored my thoughts because a) I genuinely thought the rim pointed at France and b) I just thought the detailed way it was made, and the design of the shape of it, were more 'sophisticated' and less 'sturdy' than I consider Bohemian glass to be, which for me pointed to France.
But having been pointed that way again -

- The trefoil rim and the way it is done at the back by the handle is unusual and Richardson had a fondness for this type of rim it seems.  (I can't find any other definitely identified makers that did at the moment).  I think that rim and the way the handle is applied, which is also rare, indicates it is mid 19th century (I thought  it  may even be as early as 1840's but let's ignore that for the mo).
- Which led me on to the thought that Richardson also seemed to have a lot in common with Harrach regarding styles, obviously with some differences, but there is confusion often between the two makers. 

- The first jug I linked to on the Ruby Lane site http://www.rubylane.com/item/518922-1917-397/Antique-French-Baccarat-Opaline-Enamel  is the one that is closest to mine in terms of the rim and the handle.  It is attributed as Baccarat, but with the mark on the base and that amber tan coloured flat background enamel band, I wondered if it might be Harrach.  I have found a Harrach marked piece with a very similar P with the horizontal foot on the P and Harrach did letter and number their pieces. But against that, the jug seems to have quite a large polished pontil mark and the gilded decoration and design doesn't look particularly Bohemian to me :-\

- Re the jugs on the Black Country Museum site, some are marked but I thought there might be a possibility that the red one attributed as 'probably Richardson' http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST730/ might be Bohemian? - it too has similarities with my little jug.

- I then found a dated 1869 page of Harrach opaline with red trailed wavy rims on Collectors Weekly  http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/60061-harrach-neuwelt--alabaster-glass-vesse

So, I've no definite id but I'm now wondering whether it is either:
a) earlier Bohemian glass i.e. 1840's or so from an unknown glass house(would a small maker do polished pontil marks and that level of detail and design or would it need to be a fairly established house?) or

b) later 1869 ish Harrach (but I feel the design is not really Harrach ish - don't ask me why as I couldn't explain that feeling in words  ;D and I'm probably wrong or

c) a place such as Josephinenhutte but I've no idea whether they did this kind of opaline glass or Richardson but I can't find any with trailed rims 

d) French  ;D  ;D

Phew...thanks if you managed to read this far.

Offline flying free

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2012, 10:13:23 AM »
I've done a comparison of the clarity of the opaline close up for future reference for searches. 
I find it quite amazing when you look more closely at the glass, how different the make up is of what look like very similar pieces.
The opaline on the jug has the quality, silkiness and appears to have the clarity of say Stevens and Williams Alabaster.  But actually it is whiter than S&W Alabaster white and close up shots of both show the white jug to be much clearer cleaner opaline glass.  It is very similar in colour to what I think is the opaline cake stand/epergne base, but again close up shots show the cake stand to be possibly pate de riz, certainly cloudy opaline, whereas the jug is definitely not.

Offline flying free

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Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 11:22:30 AM »
 :-[ ::)  - I didn't check one book..Gulliver's. Couldn't find it in my pile of books and it didn't occur to me til this morning to try and find it to  check rims and handles
page 238 - white opaline like mine - tall jug, same rim with same trailing, handle applied differently though, polished pontil mark, body sits on a solid section foot c 1855 -pretty certain this could be the same maker as mine.
page 238 - blue bright blue opaline small jug, trefoil rim, trailed in opalescent glass I think as it's difficult to tell the colour, looks to have the same body shape as mine as well as the rim, handle applied differently, polished pontil mark, integral circular solid foot, c 1855.  Handle applied differently and smaller than mine

Page 242, large Richardson jug c 1848 trefoil rim, spout profile not so dipped.
page 248 - 6" blue opaline jug decorated with small silver leaves and branches all over it, same rim shape, different handle but applied on the interior at the top c1850, integral foot and polished pontil mark

Mine is 3.75" wide across the base and 3" high.

Wonder who made the tall opaline jug on page 238 - does anyone recognise the shape of it please?  STrangely he refers to it as 'opaline type' glass - I look at it as definitely opaline and in fact the glass of my jug is the most beautiful piece of opaline I've ever had - honestly.



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