Author Topic: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach  (Read 8995 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9343
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Gateway
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2013, 08:11:36 PM »
Must admit their reply is of little help... it would imply Moser never enameled their own glass. The only difference I am aware of in the glass formula being the source of silica in Bohemia was not sand as elsewhere and this resulted in a much harder soda glass that was as good as lead for cutting and engraving. But I had never heard of any limitation on the use of enamels with that. Enamels are applied after the glass has been finished and fused at a temperature below the melting point of the glass.

It would be interesting to know if Moser did or did not use coats of metallic oxides over the enamels before firing as is clearly done with yours. But did Harrach and Moser use different metal??? I doubt it... were Moser using lead by the time that your jug was made.
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
Glass Zoo - Glass Study.COM
Commercial Czech


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 7012
    • UK
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2013, 08:28:28 PM »
Two things
firstly I just wanted to add to my long post just above Frank's, that both the jug with drips from the neck that I linked to, and the vase with the bird and the blossom and branches with the tooled applied rim that I linked to above, are a flattened oval in shape i.e not as deep as they are wide - this is the same as my jug which also has a flattened oval shape base

Frank, I think the only point that they have made, to be honest, is that the glass they use is not the type of glass where you could successfully add drip trails and snakes etc.  The good thing about that point is that I see many many jugs and vases that have these applied glass bits on them, id'd as Moser.  What it tells me, based on the information Moser have given, is that some of them might be enamelled by Moser, but the blanks definitely will not have been made by them as they glass they use is not conducive to successfully being able to attach applied decoration in this type of form. 

With regard the enamelling, I'm afraid I don't think they really covered that point, or at least I did not understand if they did. 
On the other hand, I've not yet come across a piece they have done where I can be sure the mark is definitely a Moser mark, that has the same type of enamel as my jug, not one, apart from the tumble up I linked to, and that does not show a picture of the mark on the listing. 
All the enamelled pieces that have their signature, have enamel that is outlined in some way.  So it could be that they just did not use the enamel products used on my pitcher or on the vase I linked to which enable enamels to be put on without an outline to 'contain' the enamel section.  Which must be necessary for some reason?  This is all supposition on my part as I don't understand enamels.  But I can;'t fathom any other reason why each section of enamel would need to be outlined, but on my jug this is not the case. 

BTW, you know the jug I linked to a couple of posts up, that has the bird on, that has been attributed to Moser but no sig or reference to be seen ...the bird has crazing on the enamel.  I've seen that jug or similar elsewhere id'd as Moser as well.  Does any one know if it is in the Baldwin book please? just as a matter of curiosity :)
m


Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9343
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Gateway
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2013, 10:12:28 PM »
At its simplest enamel is finely ground coloured glass that is fused to the surface of glass. There is a lot more to the chemistry and exactly how the form of the enamel is when ready for use by the enameler.

It can be used as a paint for brushing or spraying on. It can be used as an ink, for silk screen printing or lithography and in the latter case printed usually to a transfer tissue for application to the glass. The fluid carrier can be something that dries fast or slow depending on purpose so it is not necessary to have a border to fill as colours will not necessarily blend at joins but that is also an enamel technique.

Once applied it needs to be heated to a fusing temperature, again complex area of the technology. Heating will cause the enamel to fuse into a ŽlooseŽ sticky mass and also onto the surface of the glass, it can also cause colour changes and with appropriate medium cause the enamel to swell up to a thickened result. The enamel is not heated enough to cause it to melt into glass again hence it cannot be fully transparent... although this is done with enamels in jewellery.

Other colours than can not be gotten easily with glass can be mixed with pigments but these are tricky to fire. Metallic oxides can be added either for metallic decorations, surface effects or to change the appearance of enamel colours. In general the metals will bond tightly but not fuse and will be subject to wear through handling.
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
Glass Zoo - Glass Study.COM
Commercial Czech


Offline azelismia

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 326
    • The Gilded Curio; a personal collection
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2013, 10:39:18 PM »
the Baldwin book is full of mistakes and not really to be trusted except for in spots where the piece is signed. Harrach made glass like this in direct competition with August st Jean. They even copied AJ  work directly. There are examples in the Harrach book. I didn't see anything like this at the moser factory and there is nothing like this in the book from the Moser factory. I do not think they made any glass like this.

Riedel, Harrach, Sevres, Galle and August St Jean are the players I am aware of. (and possibly Stevens and Williams)


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 7012
    • UK
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2013, 11:11:16 PM »
Thank you both for your replies :)
I'm going to reply in dribs and drabs as I have just lost a whole post infuriatingly

Frank, firstly to answer a question you posted a couple of posts back ( I have used Truitt's Collectible Bohemian Glass 1880-1940 page 90/91 as a reference)

'It would be interesting to know if Moser did or did not use coats of metallic oxides over the enamels before firing as is clearly done with yours. But did Harrach and Moser use different metal??? I doubt it... were Moser using lead by the time that your jug was made.'

My jug was made by Harrach in 1878/1879.  It's a significant date because 1878 was the year of the World Exposition in Paris and was where Auguste Jean won medals for his applied glass pieces iirc. This is many years before Moser acquired approval to build a glass manufacturing facility which was in 1893.  Moser acquired a license to operate a refinery in 1857.  He used blanks from various glass houses most notably Meyr's and Harrach to decorate until he started his own glassworks.

I cannot answer about what metal was used and whether it was the same as Harrach, however with regards to this, something interesting caught my eye in the book page 90-
Where Moser have said in their reply that the glass they use is not the type of glass that applied decoration can be applied to (eg.I believe they mean the snakes and drips on my jug), it says in Truitt's
'At the world exposition in Paris in 1900, Moser won a silver medal for his engraved, transparent glass, which shaded from clear to various colours - green, purple, topaz, or yellow.  In addition to his shaded wares, the company also introduced vases and drinking glasses decorated with hot applied flowers and fruits.  This type of glassware remained popular through the 1920's and marked Moser's departure from the luxury engraved glass of the 1870s.' (my underlining to illustrate the point that they did use a hot applied decoration) ??? ??? and of course they did apply acorns didn't they?
more to follow but don't want to lose this post again :)


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 7012
    • UK
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2013, 11:47:59 PM »
following on :)
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the enamelling process for me.  I really appreciate it and it helps to get a better understanding of some of the intricacies of how it is done.

I think I  can understand and see what you mean , re' the use coats of metallic oxides over the enamels before firing as is clearly done with yours. '  do you mean you can see this has been used because of the crackling on the surface of the insects? If so, that was why I commented on the bird enamelled on the jug I linked to ( not my jug) as that jug is attributed as Moser. 

Alisa thank you :)  can I just check, was your response in relation to this jug I questioned please?
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8492711
or was it a comment regarding makers of pieces similar to my jug?

I've found similar applied glass pieces from all the makers  you mention but must also add:
 E Leveille where there are pieces in a museum in France (can't recall which one)that iirc were given by him
Clichy - reference Le Genie Verrier de l'Europe Cappa - page 200
Gabriel Argy-Rousseau (possibly?) - unsigned piece reference Le Genie Verrier de l'Europe Cappa - page 165

I don't think we've got to the bottom of any of the questions which were -
Did Moser use metallic oxides over their enamelling?
How is Moser's glass different to Harrach
Why would the make up of Moser glass preclude them from being able to apply glass form decoration
Why would it preclude them from being able to apply enamels such as those on my jug.
It's possible there is a language misunderstanding on both parts of course :) and information may be being lost in translation.
m


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 7012
    • UK
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2013, 12:35:21 AM »
And just to add for clarity :)
My pitcher/jug was made by Harrach and I don't believe from the information I've been given, that it was enamelled by Moser.
 Moser have confirmed they did not make the jug nor decorate it.
 Harrach have confirmed they made it.
Moser have said that the metal they used for their blanks was such that they could not apply glass decoration such as that on my jug i.e. snakes and drips - we are discussing why they might not have been able to do that.
Neither company have claimed it for the enamelling, Moser have said it definitely was not them, Harrach have not confirmed it was not them but have given me information of the company this was made for (not Moser).
Moser have said they could not do enamelling like this - we are discussing why they might not have been able to do so but I've not been able to get enough information from Moser to clarify this.  It might be that I am not asking the right questions or that technical information is getting lost in translation both ways.
:)
m


Offline azelismia

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 326
    • The Gilded Curio; a personal collection
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2013, 01:39:08 AM »
I was talking in generalities about this kind of glass. (glass that looked like this, not hot applied in general) I talk in generalities a lot.

I know Moser has a historian that sometimes answers emails. I am not sure about the knowledge base of the modern workers there for historic glass, especially pre 1895. I think maybe the difference was pre 1895 they were just a refinery. they had no hot shop. after 1895 they did have a hot shop so they could apply things to teh glass that required the glass to be hot still.

If they did do something like this they'd have had to have bought the blank including the salamander or whatever. I know Harrach did sell decorated pieces sometimes to refiners.








Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 7012
    • UK
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2013, 09:24:35 AM »
Hi thanks for clarifying which you were referring to :)

yes the historian was the first person to look at the jug before I knew it was made by Harrach, and this was their response:

'I have forwarded these pictures to the Moser historian who informed me that this glass jug was not produced by Moser glassworks as the design and way of manufactoring do not correspond to the Moser production. This glass piece was decorated by a metallurgical technique which is only possible with sodium glass. This vase seems to be produced before the year 1930. Unfortunately we cannot determinate in which glassworks this glass jug was produced.'

Whilst I understand what you mean that from 1893 when they started their own glass making factory they should have been able to make glass with hot applied decoration...and indeed in Truitt's it says they did (reference my quote above), their second email response( see below - it was a response after I had told them it was made by Harrach and gave them the date it was made), seems to make clear they did not. And also makes clear that the enamelling used on my jug was not possible at their glassworks :

'The sodium glass has got the possibility of longer processing. The Italian glassworks (for example Murano glassworks) mostly use this. The advantage is that the time for decorating, sticking the ornaments and other decoration is longer and this kind of glass enable this.
 
The sodium potash glass which is used by Moser has got  shorter time of processing. It gets faster stiff and the docarating and enameling is not possible.
 
'

This is obviously different to what they say in Truitt's.  I also wonder how they applied the acorns for example then?

I've seen the patterns for my jug and I understand it was made with the snakes and drips on the rim applied.  These are actually on the pattern for the jug. 

m


Offline azelismia

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 326
    • The Gilded Curio; a personal collection
Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2013, 10:37:01 AM »
that glass was before 1895. before they had their own glass shop. it was from Harrach most likely.

 

Search
eBay.com
eBay.co.uk

Link to Glass Encyclopedia
Link to Glass Museum
Enter
key words
to search
Amazon.com