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Author Topic: Art historians  (Read 2132 times)

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Sklounion

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Art historians
« on: November 11, 2004, 11:09:03 PM »
In the development of knowledge of the subject area, have art historians: helped, hindered, worked to own agendas, (ie; collected, learnt, then stuck the whole of their collection up fo sale, then managed to gain jobs in prestigious posts, with little real knowledge of the subject area) or do they really serve a useful purpose??????
please discuss.

As an art historian myself, PLEASE NOTE: I will be using your comments in a current thesis. If you are NOT prepared to be quoted,  and have your web id mentioned, (no Guests please) PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not respond to this..........
Thanks in advance,

Le Casson

PS Paradisetrader!!!!! Check your e-mail !!!!!!!!

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Offline Frank

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Art historians
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2004, 11:50:32 PM »
I am sure that the entire scenario you described has occurred but I doubt many have ended up in jobs related to their research. In that respect the direction of the discussion you ask for is unclear.

Then again, when you pose such a question here you are faced with getting responses from amateur and semi-professional 'art historians' although we may have the odd academic variety. You for example?

Interestingly many of the 'collector/dealer/researcher' that I have known over the years, have not delivered the benefits of their research very far and they eventually die along with their fruits, some have been published. Although the web set do at least share on forums like this or on their own web-sites. This category of 'art historian’ certainly work to his or her own agenda based on their interests and each will have their own criteria to assess and value evidence. When that knowledge is delivered in a published form any mistakes and erroneous hearsay becomes 'facts'. The glass literature is rich in such faulty knowledge.

Based on that, the professional academic art historian should be a better source of information - providing they are using scientific methodology and detailing the sources of their research. This is borne out in some cases, notably Neuwirth. But I have no certain idea if her research is as good as it appears to be.

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Anonymous

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Art historians
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2004, 12:45:54 AM »
I can certainly think of one, whose career, seems to have been on the up and up since the ******** sale of their collection in  Nov 1984.

Ok, Frank, I hold my hands up, you got me, (academic) but, my mother always told me,your knowledge is a tool to be shared, and never to be used as a weapon (except when dealing with the dishonest, fraudulent...)

On a more serious note, what I am trying to evaluate is whether the agenda of an art historian's specialist interest colours what others consider to be worthwhile. Have art historians genuinely increased our knowledge of the subject, or merely directed people towards potential areas of the applied arts that become collectable, and then profitable?

For example, an art historian wrote on Wedgwood Glass, and now, imho, most if not all Wedgwood Glass is, certainly on eBay, identified as Stennett-Willson, with little recognition of other designers. Stennett-Willson is important, but when Joe Bloggs ascribes the bestiary of paperweights to him, as has happened on eBay, when in fact David Midwinter, scion of the Midwinter pottery family, was responsible for that range, the art history is served to hinder a lucid picture of Stennet-Willson's, not inconsiderable, contribution to 20th century British glass.

Marcus

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Offline Frank

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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2004, 09:24:10 AM »
Quote from: "Anonymous (Marcus)"
the agenda of an art historian's specialist interest colours what others consider to be worthwhile.


Possibly although this would depend on the perspective. For example:
The study is based on available original documents - it lacks information that is not recorded.

The study is based on a collection - it lacks information that is not included in the collection.

The study is based on interviews of staff - the information is based on hearsay.

In each of those cases the historian will be making value judgements on the material and will, possibly, emphasis points that may be less important then they then become. In reality, combinations of these are brought into play.

Quote from: "Anonymous (Marcus)"
Have art historians genuinely increased our knowledge of the subject, or merely directed people towards potential areas of the applied arts that become collectable, and then profitable?



If you allow the collector/dealer/researcher to be included in the scope of 'art historian' then there are many good examples of people leading the fashion in collecting. In the UK, Victor Arwas (Art Deco/Nouveau), Dan Klein (Italian Art Glass), Richard Dennis (British Art Pottery), Frank Andrews. (Ysart Glass)

In my own case I took a glass considered by only a few as worthy of attention, Monart, through publishing research in a club newsletter and later a book it became collectible. Other dealers had tried in the past to create a market for the glass but it had remained at the same price level for years 5-20 pounds apiece. By diligent marketing I created a visual impact at the centre of the collecting world in London. By sharing knowledge - publishing my own and others research in a dedicated collectors club. By publishing a quality book. However, instead of exploiting that advantage I then retired from dealing in the glass.

Now I am back to sharing the research that has happened since then. This brings up another issue in your debate that relates to the Stennett-Wilson/Midwinter point. Is the art historian responsible for this situation, should that historian have a duty to keep abreast of expanding knowledge on the subject of his published research? At this point is a 'conflict of interest' arising? The academic historian may have exhausted their interest in this area, whereas the collector historian is likely to continue their interest and bring later knowledge into a wider domain. But unless the latter sees that knowledge published it is likely to be lost. Yet another influential factor comes into play - willingness of a publisher to publish.

I can again use Ysart Glass as an example, the article on Paul Ysart had been written by, now Professor, Alison J Clarke whose interest in glass and Paul Ysart had been the subject of her thesis at university. She was happy to research and write the article and this was based on interviews with Paul Ysart, collectors and earlier research. The quality is good and has stood the test of time. However, Alison is a 'Design Historian' and her interests have moved on. There is more than one source for later research as well as some distortions circulating.

In 1989 I published an article on Nazeing Glass in my own newsletter and also in a Glass Association journal. I had not researched in any great depth and it was mostly based on an earlier article that had shrunk into obscurity. It was aimed at giving Ysart collectors a minimum of knowledge on a similar glass and not to encourage collecting of Nazeing glass. My article contained a contentious 'fact' from the original source, but nobody told me until a couple of years ago on this board. Also unknown to me, I was being pointed at as the cause of the disinformation. Once it came to my attention I changed it.

There is another aspect of the collecting philosophy that has been changing noticeably in recent years although the roots of the change go back to the 1920's. That is the original Connoisseur collector as opposed to what I call the aesthetic collector. I would imagine that many art historians still fall into the first camp and that is the relatively new discipline of design history that parallels the latter.

A good example of a connoisseur collector was Michael Parkington. He came from an upper middle class background and was a lawyer. For years he was a serious collector of early silver that got frustrated by being forced to keep his entire collection in a bank vault. He decided to dispose of it and collect English Glass. In so doing he became the most significant collector of English glass of all time. He started with the earliest English glass and steadily worked forward in time. He obtained significant amounts of original research material and studied the subject with academic fervour. Sadly none of this was published although I imagine his archive ended up at Broadfield House. When I first met Michael he had only just begun on twentieth century glass. We had long winding discussions in which he expressed his horror at collecting a glass that was of such poor quality but had to confess that my enthusiasm was contagious. He bought his first ever damaged piece of glass from me and four weeks later I had to take it back, it caused nightmares. But the chink in his connoisseurial nature had widened and before long he 'had to have' a piece of Monart of stunning beauty but covered in 'stress' cracks. He justified this at first by being fascinated at the damage but it was not the last damaged piece of Monart he bought. He had crossed the line and started to collect for aesthetic values. I think the truth was that till then his glass collecting had been deadly serious and through our meetings had warmed to the idea of letting 'his child' share his collecting interest.

He had another effect though, as the number one glass client of all the leading auction house and dealers he made them start to take Monart seriously. Prior to that Monart was almost exclusively sold by mid-range auction houses in mixed lots with other glass. The term Schneider like or Murano like being used to describe Monart. Today, you see endless pieces of glass being described as Monart or Monart-like, including Schneider and Murano!

To summarise this long winding story, yes the art historian has an impact but equally important is someone to sell the glass and someone to buy it. Each has a significant impact but none in isolation.

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Offline Morgan48

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Art historians
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2004, 11:16:27 AM »
Quote
"Ok, Frank, I hold my hands up, you got me, (academic) but, my mother always told me,your knowledge is a tool to be shared, and never to be used as a weapon (except when dealing with the dishonest, fraudulent...) "


Apart from judicious intervention from the omnipotent it is probably impossible to stop a chainsaw being wielded around  the glasshouse by some maniacal degenerate....you quite simply do not get to choose the respondent or response to your submissions.....some might argue...no bullet= no gun= no dead....and then gets mown down by a runaway cow!......anyway...
Knowledge in many respects remains subjective as it relies to a certain extent on observation, personal preference and opinion. I cannot imagine there have been many "historians" who have dedicated research to a subject that they either were detached from or loathed.....so the collusion is instilled right from the off....And is it not a fact that there are very few........the rest...most fortunately...remains questionable   ....and really do we actually want it any other way?

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Offline Frank

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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2004, 11:45:10 AM »
On the other hand the art historian can provide a useful service through having the time to search, and access too, restricted archives. When the contents of the archive are recorded faithfully the information can be regarded as valid.

Yet how often does this happen, invariably a selection of available material is made. What is omitted and why? Is this where bias can be introduced.

I would suspect that a large amount of the misinformation is happening when an assumption is made 'from available facts'. If the writer makes this clear fine, but this is often not the case.

For example the IOW flame seal and the Strathearn seal are frequently misquoted. This can be isolated to one book that lists the IOW flame as belonging to Strathearn:
Glass Signatures, Trademarks and Trade Names from the 17th to 20th century by Pullin, Anne Geffken, USA 1986.

Strathearn leaping Salmon

Isle of White Glass flame

The authors that copy a text from someone else and change the dates to suit publication date and therefore corrupt history:
Scottish and Jacobite Glass by Fleming, Arnold, Scotland 1938
The article on Moncrieff is the exact text from Moncrieff leaflet with several years added to the dates!
He did not quote the source and is thus a plagiarist.

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Offline aa

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Art historians
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2004, 12:40:52 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"


For example, an art historian wrote on Wedgwood Glass, and now, imho, most if not all Wedgwood Glass is, certainly on eBay, identified as Stennett-Willson, with little recognition of other designers. Stennett-Willson is important, but when Joe Bloggs ascribes the bestiary of paperweights to him, as has happened on eBay, when in fact David Midwinter, scion of the Midwinter pottery family, was responsible for that range, the art history is served to hinder a lucid picture of Stennet-Willson's, not inconsiderable, contribution to 20th century British glass.


Spot the deliberate mistake? Or is this just a good example of how little details become gradually adulterated albeit unintentionally? It was in fact Richard Midwinter!

By the way, there is a glassblowing technique called "uberfang"...the German description, although  the technique is now used widely and I'm not sure who used the technique first. It involves turning a colour cased bubble inside out onto another colour cased bubble. This complex method produces an overlay of colour.  The English translation of uberfang is overlay. The artist Rachel Woodman learnt this technique at the Orrefors Glass School, to the best of my recollection. However, in an interview with Rosemary Field for Crafts Magazine she described the technique as "overfang" presumably because she and others had managed to work out that uber means over but not the second part. Rosemary Field then published her article and effectively archived the mysterious new technique of "overfang", notwithstanding the fact that a perfectly satisfactory description "overlay" already existed. Aside from this minor error, the article was extremely accurate and provided good reference material.

A year or so later, Dan Klein's excellent "Glass - A Worldwide Survey", (at least I think it was that one) was published. In the British section, you will find a similar description of Rachel Woodman 'who uses the "overfang" technique'! Glass historians who use these excellent works for reference will no doubt continue to compound this error!

As my copies of the above works are still packed up following our move earlier this year, my apologies to all concerned if my memory is not entirely accurate.
Hello & Welcome to the Board! Sometimes my replies are short & succinct, other times lengthy. Apologies in advance if they are not to your satisfaction; my main concern is to be accurate for posterity & to share my limited knowledge
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Offline aa

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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2004, 05:49:23 PM »
Re Wedgwood Glass...I've just remembered that I was supposed to comment on the Glass Encyclopaedia article before it was posted and my workload got the better of me, so if the incorrect reference to David Midwinter came from there, its probably mea culpa! Apologies Angela!
Hello & Welcome to the Board! Sometimes my replies are short & succinct, other times lengthy. Apologies in advance if they are not to your satisfaction; my main concern is to be accurate for posterity & to share my limited knowledge
For information on exhibitions & events and to see images of my new work join my Facebook group
https://www.facebook.com/adamaaronsonglass
Introduction to Glassblowing course:a great way to spend an afternoon http://www.zestgallery.com/glass.

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Sklounion

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Art historians
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2004, 05:18:50 PM »
Quote from: "aa"
Re Wedgwood Glass...I've just remembered that I was supposed to comment on the Glass Encyclopaedia article before it was posted and my workload got the better of me, so if the incorrect reference to David Midwinter came from there, its probably mea culpa! Apologies Angela!


No need to apologise, this was definitely my error,  :oops:  having talked to Richard on glass animals in the past.

Marcus

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Offline Frank

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Continued from archive - Art historians
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2011, 03:45:11 PM »
Original topic http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,504.0.html

Quote from: aa
By the way, there is a glassblowing technique called "uberfang"...the German description, although  the technique is now used widely and I'm not sure who used the technique first. It involves turning a colour cased bubble inside out onto another colour cased bubble. This complex method produces an overlay of colour.  The English translation of uberfang is overlay. The artist Rachel Woodman learnt this technique at the Orrefors Glass School, to the best of my recollection. However, in an interview with Rosemary Field for Crafts Magazine she described the technique as "overfang" presumably because she and others had managed to work out that uber means over but not the second part. Rosemary Field then published her article and effectively archived the mysterious new technique of "overfang", notwithstanding the fact that a perfectly satisfactory description "overlay" already existed.

Intriguingly in Norwegian Overfang means overlap, presumably = overlay. In Danish Overfang als means Overlay. Circles within circles. see also http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=Overfang where it shows German derivation of the Danish word.

While looking for distribution of another term I bumped into this Googling brings the term up in relation to Orrefors,  Reiymire etc.

So was Rachel taught at Orrefors in German, Norwegian, Swedish or Danish? V&A... http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O3610/bowl/

Lindean Mill http://collections.glasgowmuseums.com/starobject.html?oid=199088

Perhaps not an error after all?



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