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Author Topic: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?  (Read 7662 times)

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Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2016, 09:34:01 AM »
good points:

1. Yes they are consecutive paragraphs, I literally copied and pasted, hence the first paragraph not really having anything to do with cameo glass, to show that they follow on from each other.

One of the reasons I did that was because the author does not denote or mention time frame between the first paragraph where she mentions 17th century, and the subsequent paragraph. 
The book was written in I think 1912 so it's reasonable to assume the glass she discusses in the second paragraph was made between 17th century and 1912.  (To me, from what I have read in many other books etc,  it is obviously referring to glass made in the 19th century though).

Perhaps she doesn't mention time frame because she is unsure whether it actually is 19th century or 18th century.  The Chinese were making cameo glass in the 18th century iirc (need to check that and give a reference).


The second reason was to demonstrate that it appears to me, the first paragraph is all about engraved glass, and the second paragraph was about a different method i.e. cameo glass. 

The reason I think, that it reads oddly, as it is in the context of her doing a Chapter on glass within a book of various decorative techniques.  So she is skimming the surface of French glass, English glass, Bohemian glass etc. rather than it being in any detail.  However she has seen fit to describe two specific processes of Bohemian glass that are outstanding, i.e. their early engraved glass and then bas relief and cameo overlay glass.


2. 'And another possible confusion is the use of the term "cameo incrustation" ... which was a British term for "Sulphide" [Apsley Pellat, etc.].
Interesting point. 

I think she was discussing three processes that all come under the banner of cameo glass or bas relief carved glass, as opposed to engraved glass where there is no relief layer on the picture and the engraving is 'cut' into the body of the glass.  And I think she used process 1 and process 2 to describe the execution of appearance of process 3:

'Many Bohemian pieces showed an original decoration in the way of ornamentations in relief on the outside    (process 1.  To me this would be bas relief carved pieces (where there is no overlay glass and the carving is on one layer of glass only, or where there is cameo cut from one colour glass to a interior layer of a different coloured glass), whether the decoration was all over the body of the piece  or just in a specific 'medallion' on the vase/goblet (medallion in this case denotes a large delineated oval cartouche where there is a bas relief or cameo carved scene within it) ,

while the art of cameo incrustation was also first used by Bohemian workers (process 2.  To me this would be the incrusted (ceramic) cameos on the outside of goblets for example ),

who sometimes varied it to obtain odd and pleasing effects by engraving through an outer casing of colored glass into an interior of white, transparent, or enameled glass (process 3.  e.g. my decanter, or the goblets such as those that are overlay or double overlay glass ( example in the Corning of the ?Karl Pfohl lidded goblet) and have carved a scene of some sort in what is called a 'medallion' on 19th century Bohemian glass).   

One such specimen, a salt cellar, is shown in the Mitchell collection.'   Rather unfortunately whilst there are examples shown, this particular one is not.  Also unfortunately, it is a salt cellar.  Which means it could either represent a cameo incrustation with the incrustation in the base (in the likeness of a cameo incrusted sulphide paperweight I guess) or could be a piece as I have described for process 3. with the piece double or single overlaid and cameo engraved. 
I thought of it as being a cameo piece rather than a sulphide with overlays cut to clear on the outside of the piece,  because she used the word 'engraved' rather than cut.

Hmm, so I think the entire paragraphs describes cameo glass (i.e. bas relief carved glass much in the way a cameo is traditionally in relief against a background of flat surface), which is why she included cameo incrustations,  but her use of the actual word 'cameo' might, as you say, refer only to cameo incrustations i.e. sulphides.
 
Ok, so she is may not specifically be calling Bohemian mid 19th century cameo glass, 'cameo glass', but she is at least referring to Bohemian mid 19th century cameo glass, which is more reference than I have been able to find elsewhere in other books.  Hence my comments earlier in the thread berating the fact that Roman, Chinese and English cameo glass is discussed but querying where was the acknowledgement of the Bohemian mid 19th century cameo glass which was so extraordinary (different to other glass at that time, and especially the double overlay cameo pieces were remarkable, renewing old processes, and very difficult to make at that time particularly in double overlay never mind single overlay cameo) and beautiful?


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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2016, 01:18:06 PM »
huge apologies for the length and poor grammar of my last sentence  :-[ Notes to self - try not to write as you think and read before posting.

m

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2016, 01:44:20 PM »
umm, when I said that perhaps she didn't know what century those pieces belonged to (whether 18th or 19th) I really did think she was talking about the 19th.  However ...
have just discovered this book written in 1852! and it says (I have cut and pasted so any typos not mine):
'To retmn, however, to decorative glass work belonging more particularly to our own day. Two remarkable novelties were patented by Mr, Pellatt a few years ago, foimded on processes which had before to some extent been practised by the Bohemians. These are Cameo Incrustation and CrystalJo
Engraving. About a century ago, the Bohemian glass-makers excited surprise by producing bas-relief casts of busts and medals, enclosed within a coating of white flint-glass; and it was an extension of this art that became the subject of one of the patents mentioned above.'
Source - The curiosities of industry and the applied sciences, George Dodd, 1852.

That kind of implies to me, that the Bohemian glass-makers were producing bas-relief casts of busts and medals, enclosed within a coating of white flint-glass in around 1752.

Kev have you read this book?
m

So perhaps she didn't date specifically her comments in that paragraph because the techniques did indeed span two centuries of experience and production.

m

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2016, 05:36:02 PM »
Encyclopaedia Britannica says this
http://www.britannica.com/art/crystallo-ceramie

'Crystallo ceramie, also called Cameo Incrustation, Crystal Cameo, orSulphides,
crystallo ceramie
cut crystal glass in which a decorative ceramic object is embedded. A Bohemian invention of the 18th century, cameo incrustation was taken up in Paris but had no vogue until Apsley Pellatt, an English glassmaker, developed a technique that resulted in specimens of genuine beauty. In 1819 Pellatt patented his process under the name crystallo ceramie and began to issue his ware from the Falcon Glasshouse in Southwark. His cast bas-relief decorations—which usually were profile portraits of royalty and celebrities or coats-of-arms—were made of a fine white china clay and supersilicate of potash that would not fracture in contact with molten glass. The objects, which have a silvery appearance, are embedded in exceptionally clear flint glass; refraction and illumination from behind are often enhanced by crosscutting and faceting, and outer curves magnify the image. Crystallo ceramie was made in forms such as paperweights, decanters, stoppers, scent bottles, pendants, and various ornamental tableware items.

Pellatt’s work is sometimes referred to as incrusted glass, or incrusted cameos; crystal cameos; or sulphides. The term sulphides, however, is particularly associated with such cameo paperweights as those issued by John Ford & Co., of Edinburgh, about 1875, which were of a quality comparable to Pellatt’s and to equally successful work from Baccarat, in France.'


I think therefore that she was referring to different processes?
The link I gave above shows an example of what I was imagining.
m

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Offline KevinH

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2016, 06:17:35 PM »
m, Thanks for all that ...  ;D

1. I have used my moderator skills to quietly update an error on my part ... I had missed the final "t" from Mr Pellatt's name!! And I do always read my text before posting - must try harder!

2. I have not seen the 1852 book you mentioned. But I do have a (reprint) copy of Apsley Pellatt's 1849 book Curiosities of Glass Making. The text you quoted from the 1852 book is basically a rewording of what Pellatt wrote (and I suspect that much of the Wiki info you mentioned uses a similar source):
Quote
Cameo Incrustation was unknown to the ancients, and was first introduced by the Bohemians, probably about a century since; and Bas-relief casts of busts, and medals, were entirely isolated by them within a coating or mass of white Flint Glass.

* For those not already aware, in this context, "Flint Glass" in the above quote means "Clear glass".

3. I agree that Mary Northend, in her 1917 book was referring to different processes. Your extra info about the overall content of her book does seem to explain what I would call generalizations of her text and the use of the term "cameo incrustation".

4. Your link to the "crystallo ceramie" item is, indeed, what Pellatt was referring to. In his book, he gives a full explanation of the process, with figure illustrations. And yes, the Encyclopaedia Britannica reference to John Ford of Scotland is in relation to exactly that type of "incrustation". (I have an example of a domed paperweight by that company and the sulphide is set internally, but very close to one surface - in a "broadly similar" way that a sulphide would appear when added to a goblet etc.)
KevinH

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #85 on: August 02, 2016, 02:55:44 PM »
I thought I had added this link but perhaps not:

Earlier in this thread I think I linked or talked about Carl Günther / Gunther / Guenther

Some time ago and again today I came across this description written in 1851 in
'The International Monthly, Volume 4, No. 3, October, 1851'

Bohemian glass is a chapter from page 292 in that book (or second chapter in on this link)- the description is fascinating.

It discusses in great detail,  the cutting and finishing and glass making that went on in 1851 and specifically describes the work of one Charles Antoin Günther who I think is the same person as the Carl Günther / Gunther /Guenther as I've linked to or mentioned earlier in the thread.

I wonder from the description of Günther's engravings and his inspiration, whether some of the pieces identified as Karl Pfohl might be by Carl Günther (or Charles Antoin Günther).

'One man whom I visited is an extraordinary genius, rarely to be met with; he has been driven by the force of that same genius, to seek abroad, in France and Bavaria (Munich), food for his mind, and has brought back with him several folio works of engravings from the best masters, from which he designs. Placing before him one of these works, a Raphael or a Rubens, he either copies the group, or composes from them to suit the form of his vase, which he thus embellishes with the most exquisite figures; his name is Charles Antoin Günther. He lives in a little block-house, as humble as the commonest of those above described, on the declivity of a brae, by a small stream, on which stand the little scattered village of Steinschönau. It is composed of only two apartments below, of which his work-room is one, and which is not above ten feet square, with just space enough to hold four little lathes for engraving glass, at one of which he works himself, while the others are occupied by three boys, the youngest twelve and a-half years old, the eldest fifteen! They all engrave beautifully, pieces laid before them by Günther, and which they follow with a faithfulness and spirit only to be believed on personal inspection. He was at work himself on a vase goblet, of the shape of the usual green hock-glass, but which might contain a bottle; it was lapis lazuli blue, enriched by a group of Bacchanalian Cupids and vine-leaves of his own composition, and worked with a spirit and freedom worthy of some of the masters by whose works he was surrounded. What struck me most, was one of those exquisite little figures of Raphael's, in his great picture of the "Madona del Sixto," in the Royal Gallery at Dresden. The cherub leaning on the parapet, with his chin resting on one hand, as he gazes on the Virgin; it is exquisitely drawn in pencil, a fac-simile, and pinned on the wooden wall of the engraver's cottage, immediately opposite his seat. I asked him how he first traced on the glass the subjects which he was to cut; he replied by taking up a plain glass without any figure or indication on its surface, and asking me what subject I should like engraved. On my replying that, being an old deer-stalker, I should be very well pleased with a stag; he immediately applied the wheel to the glass, and in five minutes by my watch, produced one of the most splendid, spirited animals I ever saw in the forest, and really worthy of Landseer; the stag is making a spring over some broken palings and rough foreground, and his action and parts can only be appreciated by those who have lived with the deer on the hill and watched them with the feelings of a hill-man, like Günther, who has had opportunities of seeing the deer in his own native woods, where they abound. I brought this glass away with me, though in itself but an inferior article; merely as a specimen of what I had seen done by this man in the space of five minutes, without a copy or any thing to guide him on the smooth surface of the goblet.

I send you sketches of the artist and his dwelling; and as the portrait exhibits, at the same time, his native costume, it will be the more interesting, and cannot fail to give a correct idea of the character of this Bohemian mountaineer.

The sketch of Günther's House will also afford an idea of these Bohemian artisans' dwellings, more so than any written description could do. I send you with it a drawing of another of these picturesque houses.

There are two classes of persons engaged, on a large scale, in the exportation of Bohemian glass—the fabricant and the collector; generally speaking, however, the latter is the[Pg 294] direct exporter, and he also superintends the cutting, painting, and packing. The fabricant is more frequently engaged in furnishing the collector, and to a great extent, with the glass in its original and more simple forms as it comes from the furnace, and it is then cut and painted by the cottagers who surround the dwelling of the collector; so that many of these villages are entirely formed by the collector and his people. Others however, employed in the same way, cluster round the fabrique; but even their productions for the most part go to the collectors, who have their correspondents in America, Spain, Turkey, Greece, England, &c.

As might be expected, there is a considerable difference in the designs of different houses; some are much superior to others, both as to color and design. Those of Egermann, in Hyda, who has added many new and valuable discoveries in the art of making and coloring the glass, and Hoffman, in Prague, are the best I have visited, to which may be added Zahn, in Steinschönau, for whom Günter engraves. Egerman's establishment in Hyda, for cutting, painting, and engraving, is very considerable, and exhibits first-rate talent, which can only be appreciated by a personal inspection of his works; and the taste and judgment of Hoffman, in Prague, in his selections, the designs he gives, and the artists he employs, cannot be surpassed, if equalled, in Germany. He has entirely abandoned the modern school, and returned to the first principles of art,[3] and produces, both in form and decorations, subjects worthy of the ancient masters.'

http://gutenberg.readingroo.ms/3/6/5/6/36564/36564-h/36564-h.htm#GLASS_OF_BOHEMIA

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2017, 11:36:25 PM »
I have found this becher in the Moravska Galerie and they have a date on it of  2nd quarter 19th century (ie. 1825-1850). 
The design of the cameo is very similar in subject and style (vines, leaves, curls, blue etc), but not the same hand as mine in my opinion. I thought mine would have dated a bit later than that but this is the date they have on theirs:

http://sbirky.moravska-galerie.cz/images/diela/MG./93/CZE_MG.U_25688/CZE_MG.U_25688.jpeg

'datace:   2. čtvrt. 19. stol.'
' inventární číslo:   U 25688'

I have not yet checked to see if it was the one sold that I'd found previously.

m

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #87 on: October 09, 2017, 09:38:32 PM »
this is one of the ~Dr Fischer auction pieces for comparison - I don't believe it is the same glass as the one in the Moravia Gallerie
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=26481&L=1&cHash=0e79a907d3

The other link I gave to the other Fischer becher is not working now unfortunately.

Fischer has theirs as c.1860 - the Gallerie has it as 2nd quarter 19th century.

m

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #88 on: Yesterday at 09:15:34 PM »
There is one in the Muzeum Šumavy Susice belonging I think to the Bruno Schreibera collection.
(I get confused with Czech places/words - so it is possible it's the same one as featured in the Moravske Galerie online but I don't think so.)

m

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