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Author Topic: ID help with classical style vase please  (Read 9401 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2013, 09:36:52 PM »
Regret I have no idea from whence the author obtained the information that the word opaline surfaced only in 1907 - so short of writing to them (which I might do), unsure of how we verify, or otherwise, that statement.               The word opaline appears to have arrived via 'opalin', being the early C19 description as used by Baccarat, so the point now is to discover whether both words simply describe the same product.             But then you also have opalescent, so is that the same as opaline/opalin........... ;)

However, looking forward to your magnum opus on this subject :)

finito/fin/the end


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Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2013, 09:21:11 AM »
That point made in the quote Paul gave above, about the word opaline only being used from 1907 is, I believe, incorrect-

The word opaline was used (and in conjunction with the word glass)  in an article in the American Journal of Science & Arts in July 1834

(see quote below - I have reproduced the entire paragraph and it is my underlining to draw attention to the words 'opaline glass')
Source: volume 26 - American Journal of Science & Arts in July 1834:  Ch VII On the colour of the air and deep Waters and on some other analgous fugitive colours, COUNT XAVIER DE MAISTRE

page 67 -
'But it often happens that the colors do not appear and the sun sets without producing them.  It is not therefore to the purity of the air alone that we must attribute the opaline property of the atmosphere, but to the mixture of air and vapour mingled in a special manner, and producing an effect similar to bone dust in opaline glass, neither is it the quantity of water in the air which occasions colours, for when the weather is very damp, it is more transparent than during times of drought.'

He also uses it on page 66-
'...which is also observed in some other siliceous stones, and which is still more obvious in opaline glass'

link here
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FCdGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA66&dq=opaline+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M6X_UMDxLaHK0AX_ooDgDQ&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=opaline%20glass&f=false

m

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2013, 11:20:48 AM »
Interesting that he appears to be referring to the property of glowing reddish, i.e., the sunset effect, when held against the light - what we would call opalescence and opalescent glass

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Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2013, 11:42:21 AM »
I thought the same but when I hold up my opaline glass to the sun or bright light, it glows red through it.  I think that is the factor of the bone ash content. 
As far as I can see from reading so far,  both older Opaline (translucent but not transparent glass as we would know it) and Opalescent glass (reheated to achieve the opalescence as we would know it) used bone ash to achieve the opacity.  Opalescent glass as we woul, d call it is then reheated to achieve the opalescent effect.  I wondered if it was  the bone ash that causes the red glow in both ?

But I do think there is a possible 'change of terminology' at some point ...I wonder if older tomes and reports refer to what we know as opaline glass , as opalescent glass because it is more transparent that Milchglas or Lattimo both of which are very dense and opaque and look like porcelain and as far as I can see used tin oxide to produce the effect, rather than bone ash (although I've just found another report that say something else was used to produce Milchglas ...still investigating on that one).

Also a lot of that article discusses the effect of the blue sky and the blue of the sea - not necessary opaline effect I wouldn't think (Opaline as we think of it ie a  consistent colour and density of colour for the most part throughout a piece of glass when looking at it)  whereas the colour of the sea and sky changes in intensity and effect so perhaps would be better compared to 'opalescent' as we think of it.  Need to investigate more


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Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2013, 12:12:50 PM »
I added to my reply above :)

Also, I found the following book very interesting (unfortunately there are many pages of this book (see link) missing because it's a 'part read' on the net, but it looks fascinating)
There is one reference I could find to opaline glass produced by the Venetians in the 17th century
where it says
'Venetian opaline glass of the 17th century was made by using arsenic and calcined bones in the batch.  When heated, these materials struck an opalescent white colour.'

The source is: Conservation and Restoration of Glass by Sandra Davison
 first edition 1989  second edition 2003
page reference for above quote - pg 77
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JUG9ittlqZwC&pg=PA77&dq=opaline+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Pbj_UOSjA8a80QWbyoD4DA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=opaline%20glass&f=false

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2013, 12:27:32 PM »
I think my point is more that according to the count opaline (i.e., opal-like, -ine meaning like) glass has to have the property of opalescence, not that all opalescent glass is opaline. This may not fit the French definition of opaline glass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opaline_glass  http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/429556/opaline-glass). Opalescence does have a real definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opalescence

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Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2013, 01:18:35 PM »
yes I see what you mean -according to the Count, for it to be classed as opaline i.e opal 'like', the glass needs to have opalescent properties.  And in fact he states a method of producing opaline glass on page 66 as follows:

' Opaline glass is produced by mingling in the common metal of white glass, a portion of calcined bones, which gives a blue shade without impairing the transparency.'        - Source: volume 26 - American Journal of Science & Arts in July 1834:  Ch VII On the colour of the air and deep Waters and on some other analgous fugitive colours, COUNT XAVIER DE MAISTRE - page 66

I have attached a picture of my Salviati ewer which I believe demonstrates his sentence above.  I would class it as opalescent glass not opaline glass though. 
 I think this poses a question mark over what is often now termed opaline glass?

Harold Newman has  a different description of opaline glass - this is a quote from an article online that was put on the Beerstein website:
Source: this is a link to The Beerstein  site on the net ( http://www.beerstein.net/articles/bsj-1b.htm  )  that has reproduced a list of  glass terms under the heading ‘ Glass Glossary , Terminology for the Glass Collector* by Ron Fox’, citing as reference sources  An Illustrated Dictionary of Glass, by Harold Newman and with permission cited as *Reprinted from The Beer Stein Journal, August 1994,by permission from Gary Kirsner Auctions.
   Within that list are the following terms and definitions:
‘ Bone ash – ashes of bones used as flux in the glass-making process that produces Opaline glass.’
 ‘Opaline – a dense translucent glass that derives its diffused nature from the addition of bone ash, and is colored using metallic oxides, usually in pastel hues.’


Or perhaps I've just been identifying the pieces incorrectly? .... along with many other people.


I don't agree with the definitions of opaline glass in Wikipedia or in Britannica though.  According to various sources I have found (Hajdamach British Glass 1800-1914, Dan Klein,  The History of Glass)  opaline glass was produced in France, Bohemia and Great Britain in the 19thc.  (will provide sources in my post below in the thread)
And if you use the source I gave above, then opaline glass was produced in Venice in the C17th - Sandra Davison, Conservation and Restoration of Glass).

Felice Mehlman adds America to that list and has a different definition of opaline glass:
Source -  Felice Mehlman :  The Illustrated Guide to Glass - Page 216 under the heading Opaline
‘Opaline is a semi-opaque translucent glass, often of “milk and water” appearance or coloured, produced in France 1825-1870 at Baccarat (where the term opalin was first used c 1823), Saint-Louis, Le Creusot, Choisy-le-Roi, Bercy and other factories. Early wares – vases, carafes and boxes, were of elegant form and proportion, frequently ormolu-mounted and of subtle shades.  After about 1835, surfaces were sometimes enamelled and/or gilded, and as production increased to meet demand the range of opaline extended to include variety of domestic wares.  Special colours were: gorge de pigeon (“pigeon’s neck” : translucent mauve); bulles de savon (soap bubbles: delicate rainbow hues); yellow, turquoise and violet.  White, bright greens and blues were more common.   In England, opaline was manufactured in the 1840s and 1850s by Richardson of Stourbridge (painted and gilded with classical scenes, flowers, or with trailed decoration such as coiled serpants), George Bacchus of Birmingham (transfer- printed designs for cheaper wares), J.F. Christy and Rice Harris of the Islington Glass Co.; and in the USA after c1830 by the Boston and Sandwich Glass Co. Since c.1932 opaline manufacture has continued in Venice.’

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Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2013, 01:44:47 PM »
I've just edited and added to my post above to include more information :)
m

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2013, 01:47:09 PM »
Felice and Newman seems to at least go with translucent and pastel, whereas wiki and Britannia go for anything coloured and translucent or even opaque (loose interpretation)

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Offline Anne

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2013, 02:38:39 PM »
Just as reminder from the Board Policy document: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6521.0.html
Quote
Opinion should cite any references where possible
so please do cite book details. :)

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